T Nation

Creatine and Glutamine

Together or Seperate?

        So, how many of us actually seperate the two,ie:one a half hour after the other during the post workout shake, to keep the two from flooding the "same receptors" at the same time, thus rendering one "wasted" and the other assimilated....

    I think we've all heard the scuttlebut about this scenario, and some abide by it, and some say fuck it, and toss the whole kitchen sink in the ol post/shake.

        who's in favor of seperation, who's not?
      curious if it's worth remembering after a brutal workout or not to take the time, to time the two apart, and if so, which is more critical to get in the first mix?

        I appreciate your comments on this gentlemen.
              ToneBone
      cmon guys, what's the opinion?

          Honestly, I don't know about you, but when I'm done with a solid, hard workout, I'm pretty beat for a while afterward, and if I don't drop the artillery in that first shake I might not touch the stuff for an hour or two...
        The exception being that I do usually drop my bcaa's immed after, as well as pre, and sometimes I will drop the creatine in with that, and then put the glutamine in with the shake a half hour later.

     I guess I'm trying to decide if the glutamine is even that important, save maybe as a gh stim right before bedtime. I think honestly that the bcaa/creatine mix, followed by the post pro/shake is my best mix thus far. So that's my opinion, what do you guys think?
      I hit 15g/bcaa,pre and post, and do a nice 45-50g pro shake half hour later. No carbs save a 3g dose of unsweetened cocoa w/the shake and the 8g in two scoops of concentrate.
  I'm on the anabolic diet as far as the carb scene goes...
        later, ToneBone

Have you read the articles about glutamine here?

Part 1: http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=461188

Also, nutritionally-mediated GH stimulation is transient and ineffectual.

Hope that helps.

[quote]David Barr wrote:
Have you read the articles about glutamine here?

Part 1: http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=461188

Also, nutritionally-mediated GH stimulation is transient and ineffectual.

Hope that helps.[/quote]

Great article, So glutamine is worthless for building muscle. Does it have any benefits?

[quote]David Barr wrote:
Have you read the articles about glutamine here?

Part 1: http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=461188

Also, nutritionally-mediated GH stimulation is transient and ineffectual.

Hope that helps.[/quote]

            thanks Dave, I was afraid of that ....lol.

         Definitely a "luxury" not a necessity, and from the looks of it, not much of a whole lot of anything eh?

My creatine has glutamine already in it so… yeah

[quote]Hagar wrote:
Great article, So glutamine is worthless for building muscle. Does it have any benefits?[/quote]

The few possibilities listed at the end of Part II are still uninvestigated. Additionally, glutamine might help with some GI disorders, and I’d like to see its real impact in dieting (increased energy expenditure).

Some people swear that it’s great during low carb, but then again, some people swear by anything. :stuck_out_tongue:

Speaking of which, what I heard about that is that glutamine can be more readily use by the liver to fuel neoglucogenesis, thus its usefulness in low-carb diet. What’s your thoughts on that Dave, since you’re T-Nation’s glutamine guy?

[quote]David Barr wrote:
Hagar wrote:
Great article, So glutamine is worthless for building muscle. Does it have any benefits?

The few possibilities listed at the end of Part II are still uninvestigated. Additionally, glutamine might help with some GI disorders, and I’d like to see its real impact in dieting (increased energy expenditure).

Some people swear that it’s great during low carb, but then again, some people swear by anything. :P[/quote]

[quote]Zen warrior wrote:
Speaking of which, what I heard about that is that glutamine can be more readily use by the liver to fuel neoglucogenesis, thus its usefulness in low-carb diet. What’s your thoughts on that Dave, since you’re T-Nation’s glutamine guy?
[/quote]
Yeah Zen, I heard that too, and being on the anabolic solution for bber’s myself, that’s part of the reason I was curious about it also…
What say you Dave?

You know what, this sounds a lot like the butter or margarine debate. Studies are good, but until they’re complete (which often takes many, many years of research and testing), we don’t really know what to think.

In my humble opinion, I say take glutamine because there’s enough positive rhetoric about it, it doesn’t sound like it’s gonna hurt and it’s one of the cheaper things all of you are taking.

My advice? I don’t know much about separating glutamine and creatine, but I do believe that glutamine HAS TO BE dissolved in order to release its benefit.

Seriously, drinking a cloudy glass of water or dumping it in a shake might not be the correct way to administer it. It’s nitpicky, but then again, we’re talking about adding supplements to our body that many of us truly have no real educated clue about.

[quote]ministryofone wrote:
You know what, this sounds a lot like the butter or margarine debate. Studies are good, but until they’re complete (which often takes many, many years of research and testing), we don’t really know what to think.

In my humble opinion, I say take glutamine because there’s enough positive rhetoric about it, it doesn’t sound like it’s gonna hurt and it’s one of the cheaper things all of you are taking.

My advice? I don’t know much about separating glutamine and creatine, but I do believe that glutamine HAS TO BE dissolved in order to release its benefit.

Seriously, drinking a cloudy glass of water or dumping it in a shake might not be the correct way to administer it. It’s nitpicky, but then again, we’re talking about adding supplements to our body that many of us truly have no real educated clue about.[/quote]

       Well, after reading some of the suggestions from Dr.DiPasquale in his Anabolic Solution for BBer's, which is what I'm on right now, I am going to keep taking it, but not seperating the two, together like in his supplement. Like you said, there is no reason to avoid it if you can afford to use it.
      I'll post the technical info on this in a while, would like to see what Dave thinks after that...I mean DiPasquale's reputation is pretty damn good from what I know and read. The guys got credentials that can't be denied.

        Post it up in a bit for everyone. ToneBone
      Ok guys here goes..

Now this is from the good Dr.'s own words, it’s a brief description of his creatine formula which has been readily copied quite a bit by other companies since it came out…

      I am unable to afford his supplements, but try my best to duplicate closely this product at least.

     So, to quote: "Creatine Advantage maximizes and enhances the anabolic and energy enhancing effects of creatine. It's the most advanced, and copied, creatine formula on the market today.

   While creatine monohydrate has been shown to enhance athletic performance, and to increase strength and muscle mass, these effects are enhanced by stacking creatine with other ingredients......

      Added amino acids and dipeptides and other essential boosters allow an increase in the absorption and utilization of creatine and increase the volumizing, anticatabolic and anabolic effect of the formula. The added energy ingredients and precursors make "Creatine Advantage" the ultimate creatine and energy mix, one that will maximize muscle mass and performance.

Unlike many other “advanced” creatine products, Creatine Advantage is based on real science and my expertise instead of hype and false promises.

     Now here's the good stuff...

"It has a low carbohydrate based insulin boosting system (glutamine in the form of glutamine peptides-more stable in liquid form and more effective than free glutamine)and compounds to increase insulin sensitivity (chromium, taurine-which also has significant antioxidant and protective effects, stimulates growth hoemone secretion and increases cell volume, and alpha lipoic acid-which is also an excellent antioxidant) and thus make the insulin more effective.

It also contains all the necessary products for the synthesis of both high energy phosphate compounds creatine phosphate and ATP, and for the efficient salvage of ATP after it’s been metabolically degraded, including:

  1. The inorganic phosphorus and phosphates-also important for normalizing and regulating thyroid hormone.
  2. Creatine.
  3. Inosine.
  4. Ribose.

On top of that Creatine Advantage also contains:

1.Glutamine peptides, which have anabolic (increases protein synthesis and muscle mass) and anticatabolic (decrease muscle breakdown) effects, above those normally associated with glutamine, as the peptides themselves have some physiological effects. Also the peptide form is better absorbed than free glutamine that is not peptide bonded.

       As well, the glutamine in the glutamine peptides:
  1. Regulates protein synthesis.
    2.Increases both aerobic and anaerobic energy systems.

  2. Has beneficial effects on the immune system.

  3. Aids in the prevention and treatment of the overtraining syndrome.

     Nutrients to facilitate the glycolytic and TCA cycle energy processes:
    
  4. Biotin- a cofactor in many energy reactions involving glycogenolytic, glycolytic, TCA and anapleurotic enzymes.

  5. Magnesium- which has also been shown to increase energy systems, insulin sensitivity, protein synthesis and serum testosterone, GH and IGF-l levels.

  6. Calcium- which has been shown to facilitate muscle contraction and decreasing fatigue.

  7. Potassium- the transport that is linked to aerobic glycolysis.

       An advanced cell bolumizing (resulting in increases in protein synthesis and an anabolic effect) formula containing:
    
  8. Glutamine.

  9. Taurine.

  10. Potassium.

  11. Sodium

  12. Creatine (which has significant volumizing effects).

         WHEW........ok so you can see where he appears to validate the properties of glutamine peptides for aiding in anabolic and anti-catabolic properties. Anyway, I know it's long, but I wanted to get another perspective from a credible person to debate big Dave a bit...nothing personal Dave..lol.
    
        So now what do we think?
    

Change anyones mind? I changed my own line of thinking about it, that’s what I have is the glutamine peptides, and I will no longer seperate the two, as apparently they work in tandem quite nicely.

         cheers all
             ToneBone

[quote]Zen warrior wrote:
Speaking of which, what I heard about that is that glutamine can be more readily use by the liver to fuel neoglucogenesis, thus its usefulness in low-carb diet. What’s your thoughts on that Dave, since you’re T-Nation’s glutamine guy?[/quote]

Did you just call me the glutamine guy? My first instinct is to take that as though you’re calling me “the feces guy”. lol

My biggest concern about glutamine on a low-carb diet is the insulin stimulation you’d get from higher doses. I asked a popular strength coach about this in the low-carb roundtable, and he kinda wigged out, insulted me, and dodged the question.

Overall, I remain cautiously optimistic, but remain unconvinced at this point.

[quote]David Barr wrote:
Did you just call me the glutamine guy? My first instinct is to take that as though you’re calling me “the feces guy”. lol

My biggest concern about glutamine on a low-carb diet is the insulin stimulation you’d get from higher doses. I asked a popular strength coach about this in the low-carb roundtable, and he kinda wigged out, insulted me, and dodged the question.

Overall, I remain cautiously optimistic, but remain unconvinced at this point.

[/quote]

         Hey Dave, I have mad respect for you, and was wondering what you think about the text I posted by Mauro...? Just wondering if you think there are any valid points there..
         best, ToneBone

[quote]InTheZone wrote:
Hey Dave, I have mad respect for you, and was wondering what you think about the text I posted by Mauro…? Just wondering if you think there are any valid points there…
best, ToneBone

[/quote]

Good call on asking in a reply like this. After looking at dozens of posts, I tend to gloss over the long quotes.

As for the product, I’m not really impressed by it.

  1. I think that insulin is a bigger killer to diets than a few hundred Calories would be, but it seems as though this product is all about Calorie/carb-free insulin stimulation. It solves half of the problem, in that it can still leave you carb-depleted, but defeats much of the purpose by stimulating insulin.

  2. I’ve reviewed the impact of ALA on both insulin receptors and creatine here: http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1004313

  3. If insulin stimulation and protein synthesis were really an issue, then leucine would be used instead of glutamine.

  4. I have to wonder how this product would be more effective than using fast carbs to facilitate muscle creatine uptake during carb-up days.

I’m sure that I could go into more depth, but that would require a full review (and they take too damn long to write -as evidenced by the review I’m currently working on).

[quote]David Barr wrote:
…After looking at dozens of posts, I tend to gloss over the long quotes…[/quote]

…And WHY do you not have your own “Locker”

Seriously…

You do a wonderful job of “scanning” through post after post and thread after thread …adding your objective criticism and scientific expertise to the discussion …educating the (ahem…) uneducated…

But trying to “find you” and find your contributions to learn a thing or two is like…well, it’s like a giant game of “Where’s Waldo?”

…and I mean that in an Oh so Complimentary way!
(you hardly resemble the boy…really!)

:wink:

[quote]Pauli D wrote:
David Barr wrote:
…After looking at dozens of posts, I tend to gloss over the long quotes…

…And WHY do you not have your own “Locker”

Seriously…

You do a wonderful job of “scanning” through post after post and thread after thread …adding your objective criticism and scientific expertise to the discussion …educating the (ahem…) uneducated…

But trying to “find you” and find your contributions to learn a thing or two is like…well, it’s like a giant game of “Where’s Waldo?”

…and I mean that in an Oh so Complimentary way!
(you hardly resemble the boy…really!)

;)[/quote]

+1!

If creatine effectivity is enhanced by insulin (insulin facilitates the movement of nutrients from the blood into cells), and spiking insulin after ingesting creatine is enhanced by glutamine, then take them together. Doesn’t sound like there is any harm, although it may not be that helpful (but it is cheap if you buy the big tub of glutamine powder, so what the hell).

My post-workout shake recipe:
40g whey protein, 4-5 servings of gatorade powder (50-65g carbs), 5g glutamine powder, 5g creatine monohydrate, cinnamon, nutmeg, ice. Blend. Enjoy.

[quote]koots wrote:
If creatine effectivity is enhanced by insulin (insulin facilitates the movement of nutrients from the blood into cells), and spiking insulin after ingesting creatine is enhanced by glutamine, then take them together. Doesn’t sound like there is any harm, although it may not be that helpful (but it is cheap if you buy the big tub of glutamine powder, so what the hell).

My post-workout shake recipe:
40g whey protein, 4-5 servings of gatorade powder (50-65g carbs), 5g glutamine powder, 5g creatine monohydrate, cinnamon, nutmeg, ice. Blend. Enjoy.[/quote]

      Hey Koots,

here’s what mine looks like:
50g whey isolate, 10g Glutamine Peptides, 15g BCAA’s, 5g Creatine Mono, 1tblsp unsweetened cocoa. aspartme to taste, 2-4tblsp. ground organic flax seeds.
ToneBone

You know, I hadn’t actually considered this downside. I just always figured that it would be easy enough to look me up and PM me, but I agree that it’s much easier to look in the locker room.

I’ll be setting that up this week.

NOTE: I’ll start with an FAQ (which people seem to enjoy) to avoid redundant discussion.

[this is going to be fun]

Thanks for the heads up!

[quote]Pauli D wrote:
…And WHY do you not have your own “Locker”

Seriously…

But trying to “find you” and find your contributions to learn a thing or two is like…well, it’s like a giant game of “Where’s Waldo?”

Dave_ wrote:
+1!
[/quote]