T Nation

Crazy Results with Low T Meds

First off Hello newbie here. A little history I’m 41 and have been working out since age 11. I’m a fulltime Fireman/ Paramedic a Personel
Trainer. About the last 6 months started showing classic signs of low T. Went to see a recommended Dr to have blood drawn and T checked .

He was very cool and drew my blood and also started me on Test Cypionate 200 mg IM per week along with Tamoxifen(I’ve never been on any type of steroid ever) Results were total T of 568 not exactly low but I did have the classic signs. Within days of starting the Test I felt awesome! Before starting my stats were 6.0 ft 180 lbs with 11% body fat. It was tested by machine and calipers . I’ve followed a high protein diet with carbs from fruit,vegetables and some grains. No white flower or any starches.

One month later went back for blood draw. My stat now were 200 lbs with9% bodyfat. My bloodwork showed Test was up to 1268 as was estrogen. Dr took me off Tamoxifen and put me on Armidex 1 mg 2 times per week. He also said to drop Test shots by 25% less cypionate.

My question is if I control my estrogen will it be harmful to have my Testosterone above 1000? Also won’t the Armidex make my T go up even more? Thanks for any help as I’ve done a ton of reading and investigating on this subject but couldn’t find alot of info on my questions. Thanks again.

What’s your injection schedule? 1 shot per week, or do you split it up two/three times a week?

How long after your most recent injection was the test taken? If soon after you’ll have very high T levels

I take shot e every Tuesday. My blood was taken 8:00 am Tuesday morning Before my shot was given for the week.

So your test was above the normal range 1 week after your last shot, where only half the previous shot was remaining (half life is about 7 days)? Your doc put you on test shots with a T level of 550+?

Yup, you’ve found yourself a steroid dealer…

Your average test was much much higher than your tests indicated. Long term this may be unhealthy. IMO, your T dose should probably be half of what it is now, not 25%.

To get an accurate gauge of your average serum levels, you should get it drawn 3-4 days after injection, not 7. This is if you insist on injecting only once a week (twice is better, minimum). Basically you want to test halfway between your injections.

I think this Dr is not a steroid Dr. We talked about Testoterone and what’s considered low T for about 30 mins wich is alot for a Dr.‘He basically said numbers dont tell the whole story. It also about how does the patient feel. He brought up several study’s that showed even guys in the 400’ range having serious low T symptoms . There is alot of tests that challenge the old thinking of testosterone.

He also told me to drop the Test down as soon as my numbers got that high. I don’t think he would tell me that if he was just a roid dr. I completly understand your point though. He insists I have blood work done every 3 months from now on. One thing is for sure is that I feel great and that’s really what every human is looking for in life. That is priceless. My libido is back and I now don’t have to do cardio 3x per day just to maintain my weight even though I’ve allways eaten well I was still putting on fat if I didn’t do my cardio. I also don’t have the intense hunger or the feeling
like crap anymore.

I also realize just like cocaine can make u feel great but eventually it will kill you. I’m just trying to get some info on the whole keeping estrogen down but maintaining a higher test level with the injections and Armidex. Is this a bad thing to do. What is considered to high for a test number if estrogen is controlled. Thanks for your reply.

My point was your actual testosterone levels are much higher than the tests indicated since you got them done an entire week after you rlast injection. That point is the exteme trough of your serum levels, and you were still over the range.

You sound concerned about the long term risks of high testosterone, so the fact that your labwork basically paints an inaccurate picture should be of concern to you.

Estrogen should be kept down, but IMO so should your test–you should not be that much higher than the lab range (which you actually didn’t provide and I’m just speculating on what it was) one week past your last injection. Your actual average T Levels could be as much as 150% of the indicated value!!!

I personally have no problem keeping test REASONABLY above the range since I feel that the ranges are slightly skewed to the low end (due to the fact that more sick people get blood tests than do healthy people), but I am undecided on how much higher is “reasonable”.

If you feel great and your other health indicators are fine, then this may be the range for you.

You didn’t mention other health markers, so that should be used as a guideline. You also never mentioned SHBG, your actual E2 values, and Free T (which will be lower if SHBG and E2 are high). If your doc is not monitoring these values, and only your Total T, then he is only mildly educated on TRT and has some learning to do.

To answer your earlier question, reducing E2 probably won’t affect your serum T levels at all (since all your T is now exogeneous) but it will impact your Free T levels slightly (increasing them).

I had a similar experience, my T was coming in around the 1300 level (high) after beginning test cyp injections. In my opinion, 1268 is too high, but 1000 may not be bad, especially if you are feeling as good as you say. I’m surprised that you don’t experience peaks and valleys with once a week injections.

My Doc lowered my test injection, which I take twice a week, to 1/2 cc per injection. I also inject 250 i.u. of HCG twice per week and take 1 mg anastrozole twice per week. I’m cruising with a T level of between 850 - 900 and feel great. Has your Doc suggested HCG? This will help you to produce your own T, while keeping your nuts from shrinking to raisins.

You should read all the stickies and ask your Doc the appropriate questions, essentially become your own caretaker with the Drs. help. Was your thyroid included inn the testing you had done? Might be a good idea.

[quote]rbarker wrote:
I’m surprised that you don’t experience peaks and valleys with once a week injections. [/quote]

Probably because his “valley” is 1300!!!


My Doc lowered my test injection, which I take twice a week, to 1/2 cc per injection. [/quote]

cc’s are a volume measurement, not weight. 0.5 cc doesn’t tell us anything without the potency of your product (100 mg/mL, 200 mg/mL, etc.)

Sounds like your doctor is pretty easy going. That is pretty cool, wish there were more doctors out there with a similar attitude or at least a little open minded. Consider yourself lucky, most doctors don’t want to deal with people with Testosterone at 300 much less mid 500’s.

Thanks for all the replies. Thats one of the weird things is that I haven’t had my nuts shrink up YET. I’m hoping the Armidex is going to help prevent this as it’s used for low T patients to increase there own production of T and lower estrogen levels. I also don’t expierance highs and lows either probably due to it being so high as has been mentioned.

I def get a placebo buzz on shot day though. I wish there was some info on how high is too high IF estrogen is controlled. As far as blood work goes, yes he checks everything, liver-kidneys-cholesterol and more it’s so much info I have to get a print out. So far I don’t notice any side effects.

There is so much miss info out there not saying here. I’ve read several posts were guys have asked if 200ml of cypionate will help build muscle and the answer is usually allways no even if they don’t have low T. That was not true in my case. I’ve put on alot of muscle and also became extremely vascular. I’m assuming this is from the red blood cell count increase that testosterone does.

Thanks again for the info and any future ones on this post.

My other question was I see alot of guys use insulin 29 gauge 1/2 inch needles for shoulder injections. Has anyone tried this with good results. I do get sore at the injection site. I use 23 gauge 1 1/2 inch needle. I guess I could say that’s one side effect.

I inject in thigh or wife does my glutes so it would be nice to have 2 more places to try. I think I would get pretty sore if I was cutting my injections into half and doing them twice per week. I read were cypionate can last up to 14 days after injection. Mayby that’s more miss info. Thanks again.

I started with a 25 gauge 1.5" needle and it hurt. It left a huge bruise and what felt like a giant charley horse for 3-4 days.

I now use a 27 gauge 1/2" needle for injection. I’m injecting twice a week in my thighs and do not have any soreness.

The 23 gauge needle you’re using is semi-sadistic.

BTW - there is a few different threads about what size needles to use and discussions on IM vs. SC injections.

You’re right VT, I should have included that I’m using 200 mg/ml test cyp. If Wedgester’s valley is 1300 he must feel like Superman during his peak!

[quote]Wedgester wrote:

There is so much miss info out there not saying here. I’ve read several posts were guys have asked if 200ml of cypionate will help build muscle and the answer is usually allways no even if they don’t have low T. [/quote]

I assume you mean 200mg/week. I would have to be inclined to say yes it would help build muscle/ 200mg a week is not a low dose. HRT doses are usually around the 100mg a week mark. So if you train and eat, 200mg a week should make a substantial difference.