T Nation

Crazy Crews Quest.


This first part is a posting I placed on June 17 2008 on Docs thread. The rest is some of what I have battling since. any ideas or thoughts appreciated.. Thanks in advance..

I've only just started reading the forums and have to say this by far has been the most inspirational and informative.

I discovered through a lab test my testosterone level was at 330.Supposedly normal for a 55 year old.

For the past year I have had no interest in doing much of anything (several posts here mirror my symptoms) so I went to the doc. One said loose weight and exercise the next said depression.

In the past I was a 5 ft 9 in 200 lb hulk; My normal has been 225 until a year or so ago when all this started. Now I weigh 264 (30 lbs of it in the past 6 months). A long time friend was diagnosed with low (250 count) testosterone and is permanently on replacement therapy.

According to the guidelines of the VA a 175 count is what they consider low. Anyway my friend gave me just less than a cc of cypiotren and even though I'm not a hundred percent; I feel better than I have in years.

Its hard to understand that if my count is in the "normal" range; why it is that within a day of the injection it was as if I had walked out of the fog and felt normal again..

I origionaly went to the VA to get tested for Alzhiemers. I thought I was going nuts. I Do appreciate my friends help.

I got the results of yesterdays labs from a new doctor today.. I told him the truth. That I had injected .75cc of test c 2 weeks ago, and that the day before this lab I had injected .50 cc. The results were that my test had increased from 330 three weeks ago to 599 today. My estradiol is at 57. It was not tested on the original labs. The Dr wants me to suspend any new test c injs and come back in 6 weeks for new labs.

Test 599
Estradiol 57
HCG quantitative <2
LH 0.3
prolactin 5.6

The more I read (and I have been, extensively) on this and other forums, make me realize that the subject of seroid cycling and or replacement theropy is a science that would take years of study for anyone to be able to completely comprehend . The more I learn the dumber I get. Already ordered test and AI but now wonder if I could get by with legits like Alpha Male or REZ-V.

I am going to follow the Drs advice since I he is known to do TRTs. So untill I get a new lab for a base line, I'll stay clear of everything and study. I'll just hope to keep the "fog" at bay.

The labs from 6 weeks later (base line) 7/22/08 showed everything normal except;

estradiol <10

LH 1.4 1.0-9.0
prolactin 6.2 - 3.0-30.
PSA 0.3 <4
Testosterone 230 241-827

Labs From new Dr. 7/28/08 Six days later after doing .5cc of test C on 7/22/08 and daily Androgel dose of 10mg.

Cortisol Random 10 AM 7 - 25 ug/dl
Follicle stem hormone 0.4 L 1.5 - 14.0
T3 uptake 31.3 % 20.0 - 38.5
Free T4 1.20 073 - 1.95

Testosterone free/total 1221
Hihydro 1329. 36. -573.


dosage 10mg daily of Androgel
Labs from 12/18/08 (latest labs done) everything normal except

colesterol 205 H <200
HDL 29 L >39
LDL 154 H <100

WBC 10. 4.0-11.0
RBC 5.97 H 4.10-5.70
Hemogolobin 18.7 H 13.0-17.0
Mematocrit18.7 L 37.0-49.0

Testosterone,free/total with SHBG
Test 1079
sex hormone bind globuin 40
calc free test 23.8
Estradol 103 H UP to 56.0

here is a link to copies of labwork done over the past few months. Any suggestions or insights would be appreciated.


A year ago I weighed 220, I now weigh 278 lbs, now I'm on 2 BP meds, water retention pills, 10mg androgel, fish oil, zinc, and multi vitamins.

My BP has been solid as a rock until I started all this. Probably took asprin a couple of times a year and had only seen a doctor twice in ten years.

My MD doesn't think my problems are hormonal I assume. (he sure it is sleep apnea) He saw my last labs and made no recomendations. So on my own I have decided to quit everything for now; and am feeling some better. When I start to slide the other way I will continue with the Androgel at 25% less and start taking an AI @ 1mg a week. I have left all of Dr Crislers protocols as well as his patient requirements for the MD to conference, but have heard nothing. He is my fourth doctor in six months but I suppose I'll have to keep looking.

One of the tests showed my DHT to be over 1300, T3 at 31.0, Free T4 at 1.20, and calc free test at 27.0.

Low Co2 most probably due to sleep apnea which I'm not being treated for yet. The apnea started about 5 months ago. I think it is due to wieght gains.

I have stopped all test and AI a week ago and intend to do so for 5 more weeks and get new tests

I have scheduled an appointment with an anti aging Dr who is a member of A4M. During a phone conversation I asked him about hcg and he said he does not subscribe to its use. He does compound creams and HCH.

Wish I could see Dr Crisler ,but I am well over 1000 miles from Lansing


Jansz from another forum has made these following recomendations… Perty smart fella…

I have faxed these letters to 3 MDs I am have worked with this year.
Dear Dr,
Would you please review this and let me know what you think; then write me a prescribtion for the tests listed?
Also I would be very interested in using Dr Crisler in Lansing Michigan. Would you consider consulting with him. I can’t afford a trip to Lansing but he does consult work with doctors and theirs patients.


You have few obvious problems and possibly some more.
You are
high cholesterol
high sugar
high blood pressure
have hemachromatosis
low testosterone
insufficient thyroid

You have hemachromatosis, your hematocrit gets elevated when you add testosterone. You may get a stroke if you do not let (proper amount of) blood.
Because of hemachromatosis you need much closer doctror’s supervission and more frequent testing to monitor progress of TRT. You will need certain amount of blood letting (donations), to lower hematocrit. Not sure if you should have full (usually desirable) BioAvailableTestosterone level.

You are tired, high blood pressure, use diuretic pills, low body temperature.
Check adrenals and thyroid.
Best if you could do blood test at Quest Diagnostics, blood drawn at Quest.
7AM, fast 9-12hrs, come to lab at least 1/2 hour earlier to calm down.
Drink 12oz plain water 5:30AM
Hopefully these tests should sort it out, do those tests, post results:

7 ? Iodine Panel - (2503)
8 Selenium
9 Copper, serum
10 Zinc
17 ? Iron and Iron Binding Capacity (7573X) - (356N)
18 ? Iron, Total (571X) - (24984P)
19 ? Ferritin (457X) - (22764P)
20 ? Transferrin (891X) - (30346P)
21 ? Folate, RBC & Hematocrit - (1768N)
22 ? Hemoglobin A1c (496X) - (45484P)
23 ? Hemoglobin, Plasma (514X) - (7211P)
27 T3 Free
28 T4,Free
29 reverse T3 (rT3)
30 Ultrasensitive TSH
31 Thyroid Peroxidase and Thyroglobulin Antibodies (7260X)
35 IGF Binding protein-3
36 IGF-1
37 Aldosterone
38 Cortisol Binding Globulin (Transcortin) (37371X)
39 Cortisol AM/PM
40 DHEA sulfate

About your testosterone;
You will have to closely monitor your hematocrit and let enough blood (but not too much) to keep hematocrit below 49%
You may have to keep close tab on your iron stores. Above tests, line #17-23 will help, you may have to do some of those tests repeatedly.

Your earler tests (I think before you used testosterone) indicate low LH & FSH levels, well, low end Total testosterone levels.
That indicate that your testis may still be able to deliver some testosterone (no guarantee), we call that condition, secondary.
Your pituitary is not signaling to testis to increase production.

This high DHT response to your course of Androgel (and good TT while at it) means a couple things.
High TT means that your thyroid (most likely) is not far off.
Your last known body temperature was 36.1C (low).
When we get to adjusting thyroid medicine, it would help to know that number. Do not want to suggest, but usually that number is somewhere (36.6C to 37C). Current low temperature makes loosing weight additionally difficult.

Your thyroid is going down, you have to do testing first.
This is one of the reasons that you have gained weight.
The other, electrolyte imbalances, you have edema, (water pills).
Adrenals need attention.

But when/if you are going to supplement with external testosterone,
use injectable testosterone, to avoid high DHT.
Depo-testosterone (cypionate)
make sure that it is 200mg/mL density
there is also 100mg/mL, people were reporting problems with it.

When/if you get to this subject of testosterone, you will start with HCG.
Three reasons.
Starting with testosterone first would shut down your testicles.
There is a chance that your testicles, when induced by HCG will produce most of required testosterone quantity.
Testicles are producing other hormones than just testosterone, you would loose that production (for sure) if you shut down your testis.

Your periodic blood tests should consist of:

19 ? Ferritin (457X) - (22764P)
21 ? Folate, RBC & Hematocrit - (1768N)
40 DHEA sulfate
46 Estradiol, Ultrasensitive, LC/MS/MS (30289X)
47 Estrone, LC/MS/MS (23244X)
48 Testosterone, Free, Bio/Total (LC/MS/MS) Code: 14966X
49 Dihydrotestosterone (204X)

Your goals:
BAT-460 (others want (460-575), but there is this high hematocrit thing,) BioavailableTestosterone

Transdermal-T applied daily, raises DHT but not E2
Injectable-T does not raise DHT, weekly shots raise E2, daily shots do not.
That is what happens often, there are frequent exceptions, blood tests are need to sort things out.

When you are ready for testosterone,
start with 250iu HCG EOD, that may be all that you need
may go up to 600iu HCG EOD, depending on your E2 status
May need Arimidex.
If you still missing on BAT, start adding testosterone

When dealing with scripts for blood testing and medicines, make sure that your doctor writes apropriate ICD-9 codes.
Those codes will help you stay out of trouble with insurance.
The more of those ICD-9 codes doctor writes the better your chances.



I did notice your reference to Wilson Temperature Syndrome and note it is worth consideration as well… Thank you so much…


The A4M (Anti Aging) Dr just called to cancel tommorrows appointment… He said that after reviewing my records he does not believe he can help me. He suggested that I find an endocrinologist.

The low co2 reading was only on one lab. All the others were normal and this make me wonder if it may have been a fluke.

Ive been monitoring my BP and temp every 3 or so hours. And the bp is back in the normal range (meds). But my temp ranges from 95.8 to 96.6.


I’ve been hoping KSman would chime in.