From the Singapore MOH. Perhaps I am reading it wrong but, you are making it seem much worse. Again it is old people and those with underlying issues at risk.
I donāt see how I made it seem worse. @Beyond_Beyond gave a ratio of deaths in Sidney. I think I responded appropriately. I think I even took the vaccines not reducing transmissibility into account several posts back.
0% deaths amongst 3500 vaccinated cases.
0.8% deaths amongst 1,009 partially vaccinated and unvaccinated cases.
0.7% hospitalizations, i.e, severe illness, for fully vaccinated cases
Over 3% hospitalizations for partially vaccinated and unvaccinated cases.
The percentages I wrote in my last post were based on actual numbers I recalled that were released last month when the vaccination rate was 79%. I did not look up this monthās.
And I forgot to mention that the vaccination rate was increasing as much as over 1% a day before it plateaued. Since there is a time lag of about a week for severe illness and perhaps even longer for death while one isnāt really āfully vaccinatedā until 2 weeks after the second shot, the numbers would represent at least a 10% lower fully vaccinated population.
So letās just say 60% of the population was really fully vaccinated by the 20th of August. If we look at the death rate for the vaccinated vs the unvaccinated alone the ratio was 1:10. Thereās nothing to compare them to now since the latest reports states no deaths occurred amongst the vaccinated group despite over a 3x increase in cases. Full vaccination rates plateaued in mid August and there was a large drive to get seniors vaccinated so the vaccines have had ample time to ākick inā.
One example:
I thought this was general knowledge? From the start of the pandemic every country said unlike H1N1, which disproportionately affected children, Covid does this to the elderly.
A different presentation than what we get in Aus. That guy was calm, and clear with what he said, I wish my govt took a similar approach. Ourās are all about fear, and pressure, and how selfish and poorly behaved we are, and that if we donāt change everyone will stay in lock down.
This aside, given your political beliefs, letās just say that you wouldnāt EVER want to live in Singapore.
Maybe not live, but I might visit. Its about expectations. If I know what the rules are before hand, I can abide by them out of courtesy as a visitor, whether I agree with them or not.
When in Rome and all that. Donāt break the law, and I wonāt get beaten with a hefty bit of rattan.
Iām not actually against drug legalisation for the vast majority vote illicit substances. I just think using alcohol or drugs as a selling point for tourism is reprehensible.
I was also wrongā¦ They actually are enforcing the law. Theyāre searching packages arriving to the towers, confiscating alcohol they findā¦ Absolutely disgusting.
Armed revolution withā¦ Some of the most draconian gun laws on the planet? Not happening.
Parliament has been shut down for months in Vic and NSW.
Not only that, but through political fear mongering and media hysteria a narrative has been instilled within the public that covid is LITERALLY the bubonic plague. Iāve seen the narrative āeither you die, or you have long covidā¦ No alternative outcome no matter your ageā.
If deaths explode, politicians currently in power are voted out. They need to ease out of this slowly.
That being said, covid has been used as a distraction of sorts at times to justify passing numerous mass surveillance/unprecedented electoral suppression bills over the past year. Covid or no covid, this is a tipping point for Aus. We arenāt going to become like Russia or China, but a trajectory (closely) mirroring Singapore, albeit not quite as authoritarian imo isnāt off the cards.
Either way, Authoritarian or notā¦ this is not a society Iām interested in being a part of anymore. Not until things go back to normal that is.
I was warning people about this happening over a year ago while stupid fucks were whining about dumbass, minute things like masks.
This will never happen. And you guys really have no idea what life in China and Singapore is like. I have never met a China citizen who has lived in Singapore for some time who has not asked me why people are so afraid of the government there.
Singapore is arguably worse than China in terms of how little leeway you have.
China is a genocidal authoritarian regieme, but to my limited degree of knowledge corruption is rampant and the occasional Joe smoking a joint or something probably isnāt public enemy number one in China, whereas in Singapore they seemingly areā¦ You can get away with fucking nothing in Singapore
What I was referring to is the nanny state paradigm. Surveillance, intrusive government intervention imposed to protect citizens for their own good.
I can KIND of understand why state and federal governmentās alike would have an incentive to push this.
1: there is no backlash, we are an incredibly subservient, obedient populace. It appears Australians vent by drinking and/or turning to substance abuse as opposed to rallying against the constructs they dislike.
2: universal healthcare/insurance dictates the government typically has to pay for consequences mediated by our stupidityā¦ What better way to mitigate risk by any/all variables than by creating a paradigm that is risk averse to the point of absolute insanity?
3: collaboration with other countriesā¦ Financial incentive ā¦ One of the more recent mass surveillance bills (identify and disrupt) has ties to other countries.
4: power is an aphrodisiac, politicians have historically abused power if/when theyāve found a means to do so without incurring a lot of scrutiny.
5: Australiasia has no charter for human rights. When various countries within the EU tried to pass data retention laws, mass surveillance bills the EU itself came out and said āthese bills violate human rightsā. Australia has no such bill pertaining to the protection of privacy or human rights.
2 Likes
You still will never get to a state which THIS MAN spent over 50 years building unless someone of his calibre emerges.
Because giving figures without context makes it seem a lot worse. That is what causes fear in people, makes them agree to things they otherwise would not, and give up their freedoms.
Saying, something like last month 500% more unvaccinated people died than vaccinated sounds like hundreds are dying. Figures will show it was 2 to 12.
3500 new cases, people think holy shit, until the figures show 95% of the unvaccinated were asymptomatic or had mild symptoms. So, at worst 95% had the sniffles. Those that had severe issues or died where by and large over 70 with underlying issues.
How would that compare to a regular cold/flu season (and no I am not saying they are the same) or a heat wave? Pretty close I would think. It is what happens to the elderly.
This goes for all other countries as well.
I was responding to this:
How was my response not appropriate? I donāt even know the breakdown of deaths by age/gender/existing ailments in Sidney. And I said go read the news in Singapore. The breakdown of cases is there. Iām not a reporter nor am I an authority on Covid. I donāt have the responsibility nor inclination go into so many details in a casual reply.
And my intent for writing the post he responded to was to tell people not to live in fear of perpetual lockdowns. Stating that this is dependant on higher vaccination rates was a rationale which weāve already seen in other countries which have opened up and introduced vaccine passports, not an implicit call to get vaccinated even though it might serve such a purpose and I do think itās good to get vaccinated even if one is young. Even if that was subconsciously my intent, the statements were based on objective facts.
If I wanted to fear monger, I can easily say stuff like:
Singapore has one of the best healthcare systems and standards in the world. 500,000 medical tourists visit Singapore annually. The number for Australia is less than 5% of that. Iād expect the death toll percentage wise to be higher in Australia simply due to the standard of medical care.
The population in Singapore has way less medical problems like less than half the obesity rate of Australia so Iād also project a higher death toll percentage wise and amongst younger people even if you reached the same vaccination rate.
The most pessimistic estimate for the efficacy of vaccines for preventing transmission is at 39% by Israel, which means the R0 is still reduced to some extent in Singapore because of the speed of their vaccine rollout vs waning vaccine efficacy over time. This benefit would be negated by the speed of Australiaās vaccine rollout so even if you get to the same vaccination rate as Singapore, the number of total cases would be much higher percentage wise, which would mean a lot more total deaths even if the death rate remains the same.
But then, Iām still going to be optimistic and say medical science may catch up and produce more effective vaccines that delta and any other future strains wonāt be able to evade as easily and not only would herd immunity become possible, we would even have less cases of the flu caused by other coronavirus variants which are much less deadly but have long been circulating amongst the world population.
https://www.duke-nus.edu.sg/allnews/media-releases/new-study-boosts-hopes-for-a-broad-vaccine
Thatās just what the Rona wants you to think. Letās say a 20 year old male gets it and believes himself asymptomatic. On average, we can figure that the Rona will make itself known in about 58.5 years.
Iāve tried to be as non-alarmist as possible by not bringing up the US. You guys had a death rate of around 2.5% a month during the peak of the wussier strains. Singapore had less than 1% and thatās not even including the migrant worker population in the equation or itād below 0.1%.
You wanna bet how many deaths would occur in the US compared to Singapore now that delta is the dominant strain if you had a zero vaccination rate?
Not sure thatās something that can be bet, but the answer is however many they feel like attributing to anything.
Alright. Your hospitalization rates seem to be rising exponentially for the unvaccinated. Are you guys now admitting people for shits and giggles?
No, wait. I think theyāre using this as an excuse to quarantine them.
1 Like
In some cases. Others because itās sickness theater.
Vaccines workā¦ I can link the clinical literature
Thereās no doubt they work. Thereās a 40-70% chance you wonāt contract covid at all if exposed.
Reduces risk of hospitalisation by 90-95%, death by 90-95%
The discrepancies in the data mean little. In some countries wherein you have a VERY high Vax rate the rate of vaccinated/unvaccinated in hospital may be skewed. Particularly considering an elderly, fully vaccinated individual is at higher risk of hospitalisation/death relative to an unvaccinated young adult.
The hysterical myth being pushed in Aus ādelta mows down young peopleāā¦ Is a crock of shit. Itās not the flu, but people behave as if covid is the bubonic plague
I wouldnāt want to catch it whether vaccinated or unvaccinated. I have certain conditions that tend to get aggravated whenever I get sickā¦ Particularly autonomic dysregulation, neurological aberrations (parasthesia/dysthesia, cramps etc).
Last time I caught what I believe was the flu I was lying in bed with a RHR of 130ā¦ Though the tachycardia is largely mediated by fever, it affects me more than most due to the underlying predisposition. I was really, really sick last time I caught the flu. Couldnāt walk more than 50 metres without gasping for airā¦ Though this was around the time covid had just started up in Aus, not impossible to think I might have actually caught it back thenā¦ Seems statistically unlikely though.
I wasnāt able to access a test as testing services back then werenāt readily available.
I donāt need convincing lol. I was saying it would be extremely easy for me if I really wanted to fear monger wrt the unvaccinated. I gave multiple rationales based on real world events that achieving a high vaccination rate in Australia would stop the lockdowns so the fear of perpetual lockdowns is unfounded. This somehow got misinterpreted.
The data in Singapore shows the percentage of each category, not the percentage of infected people as a whole. But I was saying read the news there AND the UK to see:
-
Potential policies Australia may adopt when vaccination rates get higher. Singapore has pretty important Free Trade Policies signed with Australia and the UK concise to the point where they go to the extent of saying legal professionals who graduated from a list of recognized universities will be allowed to practice there and there are indications that travel bubbles will start on this side of the globe.
-
Ratio of deaths as a whole wrt to the vaccinated vs unvaccinated. And, to add, it doesnāt even matter what age group theyāre in. Youāve all been saying that your government and the media have been constantly fear mongering. Even if every single death occurs amongst people above 80, you think they donāt bury this in the headlines?
Itās certainly fucking significant hyperbole but a higher percentage of young people seem to be catching delta compared with previous strains. I donāt know if itās because of the R0 or the properties of the strain itself.
Well, a bunch of goat herders just beat the most powerful and advanced army in the world with not much. So, where there is a will, there is a way. Though I am not actually recommending violence. But I highly encourage civil disobedience.
And if you have the technical chops, hacking government systems, passing the government ransomware attacks and shit like that. Now that itās clear the government is the enemy of the Australian people, I think people have a right to fight back. You just have to get creative.
Sign up your legislature for every porno website in the world. Send them every viagra ad in existence. If enough people do it, it can overwhelm the system and at least slow them down or disable their ability to enforce since itās all computer based.
No. Itās that type of attitude that landed Australia where it is in the first place. You know who else has a pretty good economic track record? China.
Australia is spending a shit ton of money on ācovid campsā for the ācrimeā of having covid. And if you think the government is going to give up itās newly gotten power, youāre crazy. That shit flows one way and one way only unless itās met with fierce resistance.
The tyrannies we read about in history were always first welcomed with open arms and complacency. I hope you know the very correct phrase with reference to not learning from history. There is always a reason. Tyrants just donāt walk in and declare a tyranny, there is always a reason for it.
I donāt want Australia to become a tyrannical state but it has become one. What the hell else can I call it? You canāt go outside a 5 km radius from your house? And God help you if you arenāt wearing a mask, even though your the only person outside. You cannot leave the country even with a one way ticket? You cannot get more than 6 beers a day? You cannot gather with family, friends and neighbors? If not a tyranny, what do I call it? Hell, even the Soviets nor the Naziās went that far. Whatās the politically correct word for the government stripping every civil liberty you can possibly have?
I suppose you think this stuff is temporary? Weāll see, but I am pretty sure that 80% of the power grab will remain. Maybe they will let you see your neighbors again one day, I hope at least that.
And yeah, I could put myself in their position and deal with it. I would apologize to the Australian people and beg for forgiveness. Make sure vaccines and safety measures are available to everybody who want them and open the country up fully.
Divert all the money from building concentration camps to increased medical care and availability. And let anybody who wants to stay home, stay home. Provide protection for the elderly and let life go on.
People die, itās a fact of life. And more people are dying from suicide there than from covid, what about their lives?
1 Like