Countering Muslim Stereotypes

Otep · February 20, 2009, 5:54am

Perhaps I should narrowed the post down to the offending passage;

[quote] Chushin wrote:
C’mon Lix, debate PRCal and show us all the error of his assertions! [/quote]

If someone is going to write off a major world religion as fundamentally barbaric and hate-mongering, they should at least have the intellectual honestly to have to be able to defend their opinion themselves, without needing to rely on a 3rd party to do their research for them.

To do otherwise is to lack courage, thus the act is ‘immasculating’.

PRCalDude · February 20, 2009, 6:20am

[quote]Otep wrote:
Perhaps I should narrowed the post down to the offending passage;

Chushin wrote:
C’mon Lix, debate PRCal and show us all the error of his assertions!

If someone is going to write off a major world religion as fundamentally barbaric and hate-mongering, they should at least have the intellectual honestly to have to be able to defend their opinion themselves, without needing to rely on a 3rd party to do their research for them.

To do otherwise is to lack courage, thus the act is ‘immasculating’.[/quote]

You’re making my point for me, aren’t you? Aren’t you showing more outrage over whatever Cushin has said than over the fact that a woman got beheaded? What is this “write off a major world religion” crap? Do you ever follow any of the threads any of us post on Islam, where we discuss Islamic doctrine (as it is understood by Muslims) at length, or do you just show up to get offended on behalf of lixy, who has been proven to be a liar over and over again?

I don’t see what “research” is even needed to explain what ought to be as plain as day, either. Every day we hear stories like the one that started this thread (setting aside 9/11, the Madrid train bombings, 7/7, the Glasgow airport jihad, the Mumbai massacres, the Taliban activity, the Bali bombing, etc), but all that liberals can seem to muster is fretting over whether or not Muslims are offended and what the “Christianists” are up to.

Otep · February 20, 2009, 6:50am

What has occured to the man’s wife posted earlier in the thread is both terrible and tragic. I don’t think anyone is disputing that.

I follow the threads on Islam, but I do not agree with your views on it. It seems to be that your viewpoint is that Islam is fundamentally flawed, and it’s attempt to spread itself at sword (and gunpoint) is a cancer that is eating the world.

I see it as a matter of context. Much in the way you discount the harshness of the Judaic law by mentioning that the coming of Christ fulfilled those laws and issued humanity a new covenant, so too do I discount the harshness of Islam with the coming of Baha’u’llah.

It does not excuse acts of violence. It is my fervent hope that the gentleman in the intial argument is tried and punished with the full extent of American law.

However, as a Baha’i, I cannot agree that Islam was fundamentally flawed from the start.

Lastly, I am not defending Lixy; I’m sure Lixy’s statements can be argued on their own, to him. To me though, asking Lixy to debate you (PRCalDude) is an act of intellectual laziness that struck me as being churlish… if ‘retarded’ isn’t considered an intelligent enough adjective.

lixy · February 20, 2009, 8:23am

[quote]Chushin wrote:
Also, it may strike you as “retarded,” but I’ve actually learned a lot about Islam here by reading the various posts and links that PR has supplied. [/quote]

And I’m sure many have “learned a lot about” Jews by “reading the various posts and links” that JTF has supplied.

Doesn’t make you any less retarded.

Where have I ever done that?

It should be obvious that I acknowledge no other authority than God’s when it comes to “what Islam is and isn’t”. The prophet Mohamed himself was ambivalent when it came to interpreting the Holy Text. There’s a quote attributed to him that goes: “The one who interprets the Quran from his own point of view, and is right, then he erred.”

Besides, I am certainly not the one who “likes to come on here and talk about what Islam is and isn’t”. I don’t start threads on Islam. The only reason I started hanging out here was the sheer amount of propaganda trying to demonize Islam.

Imagine that! Two people having diverging opinions on religion. A world premiere!

Much of what I say, does, indeed contradict “PR’s info”. Much of what he says, doesn’t contradict Ben Laden’s view of what “Islam is and isn’t”.

The essence of what I say is quite simple:

Nor do I deal directly with GKhan, Sifu and many others.

I don’t see the point of interacting with people whose favorite counter-argument is “you are lying”. Call it a quirk of mine, but I see mutually assuming good faith as a prerequisite to dialog.

Ditto.

Sifu · February 20, 2009, 6:55pm

[quote]Otep wrote:
What has occured to the man’s wife posted earlier in the thread is both terrible and tragic. I don’t think anyone is disputing that. [/quote]

That is all you have to say about the way that women are treated by muslim men?

[quote]
I follow the threads on Islam, but I do not agree with your views on it. It seems to be that your viewpoint is that Islam is fundamentally flawed, and it’s attempt to spread itself at sword (and gunpoint) is a cancer that is eating the world. [/quote]

So you don’t think that islam is fundamentally flawed? What about mohammad and all the evil things he did? How can you say that islam is not be fundamentally flawed because of his legacy? What about the threats to the rest of the world that the muslims keep making?

[quote]
I see it as a matter of context. Much in the way you discount the harshness of the Judaic law by mentioning that the coming of Christ fulfilled those laws and issued humanity a new covenant, so too do I discount the harshness of Islam with the coming of Baha’u’llah. [/quote]

I don’t make that distinction. Jesus espoused his own ideology that rejected violence.

Baha’u’llah on the other hand did not reject Mohammad, a man who is quite obviously evil. Which doesn’t say much for Baha’u’llah. So I would have to say you are wrong.

[quote]
It does not excuse acts of violence. It is my fervent hope that the gentleman in the intial argument is tried and punished with the full extent of American law.

However, as a Baha’i, I cannot agree that Islam was fundamentally flawed from the start. [/quote]

No wonder why you think the way you do. Baha’i is an offshoot of Shia Islam. That is why the Iranians are so eager to persecute the Baha’i.

Baha’i believe that Mohammad is one of the divine messengers of god. How your religion can reconcile kidnapping, slave trading, rape, torture, murder as appropriate behavior for gods divine messenger is beyond me.

You Baha’i pay a lot of lip service to human unity but then you choose to call the most divisive human who ever lived, one of god’s divine messengers.

You are as blind to your religion’s contradictions as Lixy.

[quote]
Lastly, I am not defending Lixy; I’m sure Lixy’s statements can be argued on their own, to him. To me though, asking Lixy to debate you (PRCalDude) is an act of intellectual laziness that struck me as being churlish… if ‘retarded’ isn’t considered an intelligent enough adjective. [/quote]

Perhaps the reason why people think you are defensive of Lixy is because you are essentially reading from the same script, so your viewpoint is very similar. That is why you come across as ‘challenged’.

PRCalDude · February 20, 2009, 7:16pm

[quote]Otep wrote:
What has occured to the man’s wife posted earlier in the thread is both terrible and tragic. I don’t think anyone is disputing that.

I follow the threads on Islam, but I do not agree with your views on it. It seems to be that your viewpoint is that Islam is fundamentally flawed, and it’s attempt to spread itself at sword (and gunpoint) is a cancer that is eating the world.

I see it as a matter of context. Much in the way you discount the harshness of the Judaic law by mentioning that the coming of Christ fulfilled those laws and issued humanity a new covenant, so too do I discount the harshness of Islam with the coming of Baha’u’llah.

It does not excuse acts of violence. It is my fervent hope that the gentleman in the intial argument is tried and punished with the full extent of American law.

However, as a Baha’i, I cannot agree that Islam was fundamentally flawed from the start.

[/quote]

Look, if you’ve got some way to interpret Surahs 9:5 and 9:29 peacefully, I applaud you. The fact is that Bahais are persecuted by Muslims just the same as Christians and especially Jews. The Muslims persecute the Alawi and the Druze as well, which are offshoots of Islam. The Sunnis persecute the Shia when they don’t need them to help persecute the people of the book.

If you’ve got some way of understanding Muhammad’s violent actions in such a way that they mandate spiritual warfare, great. That’s what the rest of we infidels want. The 4 Schools of Sunni jurisprudence and both Shia schools teach jihad as both an internal struggle and warfare for the spread of religion. I certainly have a problem with the latter definition, as should you.

Sifu · February 20, 2009, 7:58pm

[quote]lixy wrote:
Chushin wrote:
Also, it may strike you as “retarded,” but I’ve actually learned a lot about Islam here by reading the various posts and links that PR has supplied.

And I’m sure many have “learned a lot about” Jews by “reading the various posts and links” that JTF has supplied. [/quote]

He has been a tremendous source of information too. Those darn Jews. After I started reading JTF’s posts the first thing I did was throw out my traife roommate. I just knew there had to be a reason why they were asking buying Matzo mix and asking me if I had any blood born illnesses right before Passover.

[quote]
Doesn’t make you any less retarded.

Meanwhile, Lixy likes to come on here and talk about what Islam is and isn’t,

Where have I ever done that?

It should be obvious that I acknowledge no other authority than God’s when it comes to “what Islam is and isn’t”. The prophet Mohamed himself was ambivalent when it came to interpreting the Holy Text. There’s a quote attributed to him that goes: “The one who interprets the Quran from his own point of view, and is right, then he erred.” [/quote]

Now that is interesting. Mohammad made a statement about the proper interpretation of a book that wasn’t written until after he had died. Help me out Lixy because I am ‘challenged’, but what is wrong with that picture?

[quote]
Besides, I am certainly not the one who “likes to come on here and talk about what Islam is and isn’t”. I don’t start threads on Islam. The only reason I started hanging out here was the sheer amount of propaganda trying to demonize Islam. [/quote]

I don’t think you are doing very well at changing minds habibi. I think that some of your coreligionists emulating Mohammad isn’t helping you.

[quote]
much of what he says contradicting PR’s info.

Imagine that! Two people having diverging opinions on religion. A world premiere!

Much of what I say, does, indeed contradict “PR’s info”. Much of what he says, doesn’t contradict Ben Laden’s view of what “Islam is and isn’t”. [/quote]

You certainly do try to contradict us. Unfortunately from what I have learned about the life of Mohammad it appears that Bin Laden has a solid grasp on what the Islamic religion is about.

Islam is not about spirituality, it is about serving yourself in the most selfish way possible. That is why Mohammad owned slaves.

[quote]
The essence of what I say is quite simple:

But he NEVER deals directly with PRCAL to prove himself.

Nor do I deal directly with GKhan, Sifu and many others. [/quote]

Now I feel bad habibi. Let me make it up to you. Perhaps for Ramadan I can get you a gift certificate to Honey Baked or take you to Tom’s Oyster bar for some seafood, beer and karaoke. Or if none of that suits you how about some vintage Pet Rocks so you will have something special to throw when you go on Haj?

[quote]
I don’t see the point of interacting with people whose favorite counter-argument is “you are lying”. Call it a quirk of mine, but I see mutually assuming good faith as a prerequisite to dialog. [/quote]

Good faith? You have never stated why you think a slave trader should be considered a messenger of god and worshiped. Even though you have been challenged on that numerous times.

[quote]
I’m done explaining myself to you.

Ditto. [/quote]

Headhunter · February 21, 2009, 2:11pm

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:

God doesn’t care that you were “not like other men.” To compare yourself to other men is to compare crap to crap. Crap compared to crap is still crap. God cares that you’ve kept the moral law perfectly. And only Jesus did. Jesus was “not like other men.” [/quote]

What kind of morality is it, when no one can practice it ‘perfectly’, except one man?

If a man is unable to practice this morality perfectly, he is then supposed to feel guilty for not having done so. Parasites of the human spirit can then cash in on the guilt.

Christian morality is an invention designed to give power to some individuals over others.

Cockney_Blue · February 21, 2009, 4:20pm

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:

Hey the preacher was repentant and accepted Christ as his saviour he is going to heaven.

If he truly was repentant (and not just for this act), then sure.

Glad I’m going to hell then.

I imagine you believe you’ll cease to exist, same as the murderer. You guys do end up sharing the same ‘final destination,’ in that case. [/quote]

No idea what happens after death. Nothing seems a logical answer though it is hard to believe that all the thoughts going on in your head come to nothing. I’ll find out when I pop my clogs I guess. At the moment I am worried about living. I’ll cross that bridge when I get to it.

Cockney_Blue · February 21, 2009, 4:35pm

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
lixy wrote:
Chushin wrote:
Ahhhhh… Little Lixy-dixy is getting upset, and resorting to name-calling.

My good!

But I guess I can’t take all the credit;

Actually, you can.

Your posts on the Islam-related threads offer pretty much zero value. Most of them one-liners or loaded questions.

I really don’t know if it’s intellectual laziness, or just plain stupidity.

the recent posts here that overwhelmingly show that Islam is rife with serious problems must really have him frustrated…

Not really. People will believe what they want to believe. Nothing I can do about it.

But if you seriously think this crime is a reflection on Islam, you’re as clueless as the idiots who were spewing anti-Christian hate when this happened not a few months back.

Take heart there Lix, Islam isn’t ALL bad;

Do you seriously believe beheading your wife is a pillar of the religion?

it just needs a serious housecleaning.

Grab your broom and get started!

What “needs a serious housecleaning”, is not the religion. In this particular case, it’s the brain of this blood-thirsty maniac.

Hey the preacher was repentant and accepted Christ as his saviour he is going to heaven.

Jesus actually addresses this brand of oft-repeated self righteous snark that we so frequently hear from you:

Luke 18: 9To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: 10"Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself:

‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men?robbers, evildoers, adulterers?or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

13"But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

14"I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

The Christian ethic doesn’t separate sinful thoughts from sinful actions. If you’ve hated your neighbor in your heart, you’re a murderer. If you’ve looked at a woman lustfully whose not your wife, you’re an adulterer.

Maybe you really are “like other men” then, huh? Maybe we all are. That’s pretty much the point. Anyways, all of those who were “confident in their own righteousness” are now burning in hell, with the full realization that they weren’t ever righteous at all, just slightly more righteous than other men in some respects but worse in others.

God doesn’t care that you were “not like other men.” To compare yourself to other men is to compare crap to crap. Crap compared to crap is still crap. God cares that you’ve kept the moral law perfectly. And only Jesus did. Jesus was “not like other men.” [/quote]

What are you banging on about now? Luke 18 is in no way relevent. You seem to think that just because you can pluck out a couple of bible quotes that no-one will read the quotes that you are posting or question you. You truly are a ‘consider the lily’ type aren’t you.

I was talking about a guy who is guilty of spousal murder, rape, paedophillia and incest being forgiven for their sins and going to heaven if they were repentant.

That small part of Luke 18 is about pretty much the reverese, it is saying that doing the right thing is not enough, you have to do the right thing for the right reason, not caring about what others think about you but doing it for and through God.

PRCalDude · February 21, 2009, 5:30pm

Not really. Like I said, the atheist set’s argument is that they are better than everyone else, which is why their theology must be right and Christian theology, which says that God justifies the wicked in Christ, is wrong.

So why are you better than others?

Sloth · February 21, 2009, 5:38pm

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:

Hey the preacher was repentant and accepted Christ as his saviour he is going to heaven.

If he truly was repentant (and not just for this act), then sure.

Glad I’m going to hell then.

I imagine you believe you’ll cease to exist, same as the murderer. You guys do end up sharing the same ‘final destination,’ in that case.

No idea what happens after death. Nothing seems a logical answer though it is hard to believe that all the thoughts going on in your head come to nothing. I’ll find out when I pop my clogs I guess. At the moment I am worried about living. I’ll cross that bridge when I get to it.[/quote]

Are you agnostic, and I just assumed you were an atheist at some point? Seems to me an atheist would have to believe in a non-existence. In a total loss of self awareness and thought. After all, the brain is dead and rotting.

Cockney_Blue · February 21, 2009, 7:56pm

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
I was talking about a guy who is guilty of spousal murder, rape, paedophillia and incest being forgiven for their sins and going to heaven if they were repentant.

Not really. Like I said, the atheist set’s argument is that they are better than everyone else, which is why their theology must be right and Christian theology, which says that God justifies the wicked in Christ, is wrong.

So why are you better than others? [/quote]

I don’t think that I am better than others just because I don’t believe in God. I believe that I am right about it but that and I can’t understand how any intelligent person who has spent any time studying the background to any organised religion can believe in it but that doesn’t in itself make me better than them.

If they lead a good life and treat me with respect then I will give them the same courtesy (though I will not promise to avoid takeing pot shots at their beliefs in the same way as most religious people that I know don’t avoid telling me that I am going to hell.)

My problem is with the hypocracy of people not living up to the basic premises of a religion that they do not even truly understand whilst throwing stones at other people’s religions. Let he who is without sin and all that. Get your own house in order, then start blaming Lixy et al for the evils of the world.

Cockney_Blue · February 21, 2009, 8:16pm

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:

Hey the preacher was repentant and accepted Christ as his saviour he is going to heaven.

If he truly was repentant (and not just for this act), then sure.

Glad I’m going to hell then.

I imagine you believe you’ll cease to exist, same as the murderer. You guys do end up sharing the same ‘final destination,’ in that case.

No idea what happens after death. Nothing seems a logical answer though it is hard to believe that all the thoughts going on in your head come to nothing. I’ll find out when I pop my clogs I guess. At the moment I am worried about living. I’ll cross that bridge when I get to it.

Are you agnostic, and I just assumed you were an atheist at some point? Seems to me an atheist would have to believe in a non-existence. In a total loss of self awareness and thought. After all, the brain is dead and rotting.[/quote]

No, I am fully atheist, and rationally I do believe in the rotting and loss of self awareness as the most likely answer. It is not the only one though, some of the latest theories in physics around our entire percieved universe being a holographic projection would allow the matter that makes up the brains of everyone to be interlinked.

Maybe we lose self awareness per se, but are part of some sort of collective awareness on a different level.

However, as I prefaced this ramble with, most likely we are just worm food.

Sloth · February 21, 2009, 8:52pm

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Maybe we lose self awareness per se, but are part of some sort of collective awareness on a different level.

However, as I prefaced this ramble with, most likely we are just worm food.[/quote]

Well, then you share the destination of the murdering, raping, mattress tag removing, pedophile, plagiarist regardless. In fact, in one scenario you’d share a collective awareness with him.

Anyways, wouldn’t the death of a holographic projection be the projection of the death of the source?

Sifu · February 21, 2009, 8:47pm

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
I was talking about a guy who is guilty of spousal murder, rape, paedophillia and incest being forgiven for their sins and going to heaven if they were repentant.

Not really. Like I said, the atheist set’s argument is that they are better than everyone else, which is why their theology must be right and Christian theology, which says that God justifies the wicked in Christ, is wrong.

So why are you better than others?

I don’t think that I am better than others just because I don’t believe in God. I believe that I am right about it but that and I can’t understand how any intelligent person who has spent any time studying the background to any organised religion can believe in it but that doesn’t in itself make me better than them. [/quote]

Actually Cockney atheism is the belief that there is no god. A belief that the world is as we see it, four dimensional. A belief that we have it all figured out because there is nothing beyond the four dimensions that we are aware of. In it’s own way atheism is a religious belief.

Organized religions may offer an imperfect model of existence, but by the same token some of our theories of physics are imperfect models too. Interestingly though as we learn more about physics and quantum mechanics some of the lines between them and theology are blurring.

[quote]
If they lead a good life and treat me with respect then I will give them the same courtesy (though I will not promise to avoid takeing pot shots at their beliefs in the same way as most religious people that I know don’t avoid telling me that I am going to hell.)

My problem is with the hypocracy of people not living up to the basic premises of a religion that they do not even truly understand whilst throwing stones at other people’s religions. Let he who is without sin and all that. Get your own house in order, then start blaming Lixy et al for the evils of the world.[/quote]

You come across as a stereotypical new age Brit who is looking for something to be indignant about. We don’t blame Lixy el al for the evils of the world, obviously there is a lot of blame for different issues to go around and it can be placed upon a lot more than just religion.

However Islam is a huge problem, because there are over a billion muslims, they have nuclear weapons, a contradictory and twisted sense of right or wrong and a deeply ingrained hatred for anyone who isn’t following god properly.

They have been attacking and killing for centuries because of this. We are under attack now. So no we don’t have to get our “own house in order” before we can complain about what they are doing to us.

So you can save British self righteous indignation for some other place where people will buy into that bollocks.

DrSkeptix · February 21, 2009, 9:36pm

[quote]Sifu wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
I was talking about a guy who is guilty of spousal murder, rape, paedophillia and incest being forgiven for their sins and going to heaven if they were repentant.