T Nation

Couldn't have put it better myself.

"American lives are worth more than other lives. "

And tis is the source of most of this trouble.

Scall, youre mistaking the catholics with the jews.

The catholics where perssuctaed just like any other religion, in the name of regular xenophobya and sloughters, nothing special.

I think the distinction of catholic is not old enough to discuss that (5th? 6th century)

excuse me scall you must be joking…
(forgive my spelling, not american)
I just read your post a second time. let me guess, you are a catholic.

THERE WHERE SO MANY CRIMES MADE IN THE NAME AND BLESSING OF THE VATICAN THAT I CANT EVEN START TO COUNT
if I include other priesthoods like pravoslavic or english I will get tired of that.

starting from the 4th century.
The holy roman empire?
The crusades
slaughter of jews in england 12th century, germany 10-15th, banising of spain and portugal jews, supporting slavery and feodilesm(sp?), giving the europains moral justification for slauthering and pillaging new world civilazations, denying and not intervining in holocust…

this is of the back realy

Listen. everybody has slaughtered everybody, it’s in our genes. buit no one has been so hypocrete while doing it as the chatolics.

I’m with deisel et all on this.

I don’t think the proper response is to hate or despise Restless. And on the other side I think it is wrong to hate Bush just because you disagree with his political position. The problem with hate is it takes away from logic. The people that hate Bush can only see him in a bad light. Anything he does cannot be accepted, and must be bad.

Of course this also works out for the other side(s) as well. I was disgusted with much of what Clinton did, and tried to do, but I do agree with some of the things he did. Nobody is 100% good or 100% bad.

What annoys me is the attempt to attach anything to Bush. I am surprised that SARS isn’t being blamed on Bush. And this idea that Christians wanting to go to Iraq and preach is bad, (apparently Lumpy disagrees with freedom of speech,) when no mention is made that Christians in Iraq are afraid that a radical form of Islam will take over the government and they will be forced out (or worse).

All human life is of equal value, which is one of the reasons I believed in this war. The recently found mass graves is just another sign of that.

That being said I do believe in “spheres of importance.” Regardless of the value I place on all people, I place more value on my own family. To me they are more important then anybody else. Me and my family should do what is right for the community, but when it comes down to it they are more important to me.

Next in importance are my relatives and friends. After my family I would help them out before anyone else. Then my community (very local area) is next, then my city, my state, and then my country. After my country, the world. (I would place more importance on American allies of course.)

This is they way it should be. People need to put their family first. That does not mean doing anything for their sole benefit, but doing what is right for their benefit. Also I know my influence is stronger the smaller the circle. In the world I am only one of 6.2 Billion. In America I am one of 290.9 Million.
http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html
In my State I am one of 1.7 Million. In my city I am one of 225,000. And in my house, I am King (unless I am horny, then I find I turn into a slave).

The more local I am the more influence I have, and the more important what I say is. And it is easier to help people around me. (Have I gone off topic?)

Restless keeps stating that America needs to quit being so patriotic, and that we need to quit loving our country so much, but that goes against this circle belief of mine. He does not realize that the reason we love America is that it is our extended “Family.” Including crazy old uncle Lumpy.

The basic message is that any person who didn’t get lucky in the crap shoot of birth and end up born a US citizen or born with the resources to become one is inherently less worthy of life than yourself. What makes you so special? Are you some sort of super-human, transcendant beyond the rest of the world just because you have a US passport? You may value your family more than random strangers, but to suggest that they are inherently more important than the rest of the human race is ludicrous. Human life is human life, regardless of which geographical mass on which said life is born.

I’m going to sleep.

its disturbing to read how some of you think. Lets say bush did know something about 9/11 and decided to do something preemptively (sp?). All of you crying foul now would be crying foul then. You would all be crying about how there is no proof, no “clear and present danger”, blah, blah. There never is until its too late. If we have proof at all that somebody is dangerous then they need to be taken care of.
And many of the things in that article are just plain wrong. Anything by the pope needs to be taken with a grain of salt. hes no more holy than i am.
And as far as the museums and crap. it turns out that a lot of that stuff was stolen by the caretakers of the museum before our troops even got there. Its just another sad attempt by the left to attack the president.

restless,
Couldn’t stand the pressure of being the second worst person on the forum? Well since adal has been removed by the FBI, you are now the dungeon master. You are offically “THE WORST PERSON ON THE TESTOSTERONE FORUM.” Congratulations.
I think RedmanV made an extremely insightful post when he asked whether you worked out. In essence, he was asking if your life cycle includes an activity that trully tests your mettle. You cannot run and hide if you fail to lift a weight. You can’t blame George W. Bush or the Americans if you are too weak to lift a weight. What RedmanV is saying is, “You chose to be facist for 50 years.” It’s your fault. Portugal built and maintained tarrafal. Just like you cannot blame others for failing to lift a weight, you cannot blame others for salazar and your legacy of colonialism RedmanV goes on to imply that if you lift weights, you are forced into some personal self-inspection. This honest evaluation of yourself, will lead to honesty in other areas. This leads to the inevitable conclusion hinted at by RedmanV, that states: If you lift weights you will realize that the United States=Good Guys.

This is kinda stupid. First off, I find it funny that the pope wants to take on the anti-Christ, if the writer of this article was so into Bible prophesy they'd know that a guy named Jesus takes care of that. Second, what ever happened to 666? Another part of the anti-Christ ? mistakenly ? left out, did Bush suddenly grow two more letters on his name? Third, its only logical that the pope has a fancy with the UN and its thinking since the UN and the whole "world community" idea has deep seeded roots in Rome. Thanks, bye

Bush being the AntiChrist is obviously far-fetched. First of all, for the writer to rail against christianity and then dive into a christian conspiracy theory about fulfilling some ancient prophecy really makes his credibility questionable.

It really bugs me that a fundamentalist is the leader of the free world. I mean, the guy doesn’t “believe” in evolution! He is a creationist, which means that he believes that the Earth is only 6,000 years old. I’m sorry, but that is just idiotic!

If he truly made fun of someone who begged for mercy, I find that shameful. I don’t know if I believe that he really did that. I hope that is a lie or that it is taken out of context. Whether they deserve it or not, it is wrong to mock someone who is begging for their life. Incidentally, I do support the death penalty, but I feel like it should be reserved only for cases that are BEYOND the shadow of a doubt, supported by DNA evidence (I’m thinking OJ here… that bastard should have been executed).

Brief tangent here… I have had my life changed by 2 seperate homicides, and although I was in deep pain, my desire to see the men die who killed my friends was not made with emotion. I view them and any murderer as I would view a tumor. They need to be surgically removed… excised and destroyed. No fanfare, no publicity. No interviews with some idiot who knew someone who know the murders sisters best friends dog. No documentaries. They just need to be removed from society so that they can’t hurt any more people. Now, if I had my way with what I wanted to do to those bastards from an emotional point of view, I would prefer to get 30 minutes in a room with them… a sturdy pair of pliers, a blow torch, and 30 minutes… I would actually like to let them live after I am done with them. I realize this is not the way the world works though. There are laws that prevent me from getting revenge, which is probably a good thing.

If Franklin Graham is permitted to go into Iraq with essential supplies which he plans to withold for people who are baptized as Christians I am truly disgusted. I have faith that the Bush administration, as fundamentalist as they are, surely sees how wrong this is and won’t permit it. I certainly don’t see how the Catholic church has ANY leg to stand on in opposing that though, considering they are the ones who converted indiginies all over the world for centuries, and declared those who wouldn’t convert as heretics. It wasn’t right when they did it, and it is not right now. In fact, given the situation, a sensible person would recognize this as jabbing a hornets nest with a stick.

The only thing I read in that opinion piece that I agree with is the fact that Bush was a draft dodger, but I already vented my views about that in a seperate thread and don’t want to go into it here.

In closing though, the guy who wrote that piece clearly has an agenda, and that makes his “facts” highly suspect.

LUMPY><<<<<You know one reason why its not terrible for Christians to try to convert Muslims?..because Islam is based in falsehood. For example…Muslims believe in Christ…and revere Him as a prophet and good moral teacher. Now…first of all…they believe He did get crucified…but it wasn’t really Him…God made someone who “appeared” to look like Christ…but wasn’t!!..huh???
And they revere Him as a prophet. Now…lets look at that statement. What did he prophecy?..He prophecied that He would be crucified and be RESURRECTED in three days…which would certainly make Him God! They say He was a good teacher. Now…what did He teach? He taught that anyone who seeks the Father MUST go through Him (Jesus). How can they call Him a good teacher if that is what He teaches?..He also taught that “before Abraham…I AM!!” basically claiming to be God!..for which the Jews wanted to stone Him for blasphemy!
So, because they are right…they have a obligation to spread the truth Lumpy!

“So, because they are right…they have a obligation to spread the truth Lumpy”

Well, I think we will have to disagree on that. I do not agree with evangelism. How would you feel if a bunch of Buddhists rang your doorbell and tried to convert you? They also believe “they know the truth”. Somehow this bad behavior is condoned when it comes from fundamentalist Christians, Mormons etc.

I think other people’s religious choices should be respected. When people proselytize or evangelize, it means (to me) that they don’t respect the other person enough to let them draw their own conclusions about their own spiritual beliefs.

I agree with Roy Batty that it is disturbing to have a religious fundamentalist (of any stripe) as the leader of this country or any other pluralistic society. The current president does set public policy based on his religious views, and I think that is wrong.

I am hoping that Joe Lieberman doesn’t get elected president for the same reasons. We’d be trading in one religious zealot for another religious zealot.

If people want to believe zealously in their chosen religion, I can respect that. But I don’t want those people running our government.

Open the Bible and start reading the Gospel of John.

Read it. Which part are you wanting us to focus on? What does this have ANYTHING to do with not wanting someone in office with a hidden religious agenda? Well, it is not so hidden now, but it sure was before the election. Even had me fooled that he was a moderate.

Lumpy…Christians can’t convert people against their will. If a Mormon(which is a cult) comes to my door; I have two alternatives. One is to invite him again and grill him about Joseph Smith and his so called “visions” and the supposed angel who gave him the goggles to translate the golden plates that had the word of God on them from Egytian hyerogliphics into English. How absurd! Not to mention all the revisions they have had to make in their “only true religion” to be legal here in the US…ie…multiple wives and allowing black people in their church!!!
The point being…I can show him where he is clearly wrong…or I can shut the door after politely telling him I am not interested.
The big thing Christianity has over Islam is historical accuracy and archeological evidence of the manuscripts. There are more holes than swiss cheese in the history of the Koran. And in the Muslim world…they are prohibited from researching the authenticity/validity of the Koran!!!..hows that for open and honest religous freedom!
Christianity just happens to be Gods plan…therefore it will spread and it can’t be stopped. Its accurate in all accounts with no discrepancies in the word of God of substance. Any errors where grammtical in nature…punctuation and certain numberals for example. The Koran can make no such claim! Its a religion of Lucifer himself.

Whoa there! Whew. Don’t even go into this one, as easy as it looks. PtrDr really doesn’t realize, nor does he want to learn, just how many errors, holes in logic, and inconsistencies that exist in the Bible. It won’t do any good to try to convince him either. If someone can make statements like that then it does not matter how much energy you invest in scripting out statements based in hisorical accuracy. They go to their graves still being just as right, if not even MORE right. Just let this one die or we will be in this thread till I have gray hair. Wait… Damn! Too late.

PtrDr, as a fellow lifter I admire your progress, and your drive to stay natural. As one who respects soldiers who defend our country I deeply respect you for putting your life on the line for my freedom. As a man who is secure with my own deeply held spiritual beliefs which I would never presume to force on anyone, you scare the hell out of me!

Wow, you take the Bible literally. Okay then.

Hey, those are your religious beliefs, and I wouldn’t try to force you to change.

As long as you give me the same respect in return, I think everything’s fine.

I see no problem with the President proclaiming himself a “born again Christian”. Many of our past presidents were deeply religious men with conviction.

Face it, we’re (America) a morally bankrupt country. I’ll include myself in that statement as well. Full of excess, 99% of the people in this country in need of nothing. Most of us are living EXACTLY the way we want to, doing EXACTLY what we want to do, WHEN we want to do it. Anyone who’s not, let me know who you are and what great oppression you’re living under.

When our country wasn’t gorging itself on all of the excesses here, people leaned on our leaders for guidance. Check out any book dealing with the past U.S. Presidents and you’ll find most were church-going, Bible-believing, God-fearing men. Sure, some weren’t and were pretenders (see slick Willy Clinton), but most were deeply religious.

I don’t agree with all of George Bush’s decisions, but to label him a “Christian wacko”, “radical Christian” or whatever else, is wrong.

I agree with you that I have no problem with our president being a Christian. Having personal spiritual beliefs is great. My personal belief is that to be a complete individual you need to have developed spirituality. But what if I don’t want King George’s brand of spirituality for myself? That is why out forefathers made sure that religious freedom was a cornerstone of this nation’s core values. They came here to escape Monarchs and their oppressive rules mandating state religions. I can admire one’s conviction without having to have those convictions forced down my throat.

As long as someone’s spiritual beliefs don’t inflict harm on another, whats the problem? Live and let live.
Terrorists masquerading as Muslims? we can all agree thats not cool.
Terrorists masquerading as Christians? Also not cool.
Islam is based on love-as is every other religion I can think of, but sometimes complex factors lead to religious ideas being manipulated by those seeking power.
Power can and does corrupt, even spiritual ideals.

In no way am I putting down Christianity, I was raised as one and respect it. That said there is quite a bit of literature that deals with historical discrepancies in the bible, carried out by scholars from many fields.

Just an opinion informed by critical thinking