We could fight over this all year but we all have diffirent opinions, but as a ex-division 1 athlete and now competitive powerlifter, I see nothing wrong with wanting your athletes to have strong lower backs, hamstrings, glutes, triceps, huge upper backs and be strong and fast explosive as hell, but hey maybe I am wrong. Personally I have talked to 50 or so top strength coaches in America and those that use the Darkside, Westside, Conjugate system seem to get the best results and the less attention because they dont choose to suck the cock of the fags at the NSCA. It just seems that nation wide these so called book worm 160 pound NSCA certified strength coaches who work with athletes are doing a shitty job walk into any Division 1 weight room and tell me other wise, Death to Western Periodization and Death to the NSCA, or you can choose to follow this and get your ass kicked every year like Americas Olympic Lifters…Big MArtin
I actually agree with you here. There is no reason athletes shouldn’t be developed in all those areas you mention. however, saying every athlete needs a huge upper back and eluding to the fact that hypertrophy is always a good thing, could be a bad idea for some. while i have all the respect for power lifters in the world, making a rock climber huge is a sure way to guarantee he never wins a comp. or puts up a respectable route time should he choose to compete. martial artists and different types of fighters don’t need to get freaky huge. there is a point where too much size can diminish athletic performance. see i don’t just define athletic performance as doing a max bench press. athletic performance is specific to the athlete and he or she needs to be trained as such. and you are quite brave to lump all nsca cscs’s into the same pencil necked category. many coaches like poliquin, chek and hell even dave tate are cscs’s. tell dave he is a 160 pound pencil necked nsca sissy. a cert doesn’t make the trainer or coach and if a person chooses to affiliate with a certain organization it doesn’t always mean they follow the recommendations in the essentials of strength and conditioning manual for their program designs. amazing how you are able to speak on behalf of everyone, seems like you would have a bigger role in life… have a good night big martin!
I completely agree with bigmartin’s sentiments. I have to make this quick, so here goes:
Rob Coates- There are two SHW PLers here that could still run down many an athlete (basketball, football, etc)…at least for a short distance. They are both still very athletic, despite weighing 320+ pounds (35-40" vertical, yadda yadda yadda). This may not be the norm, but I would advise against making generalizations concerning PLers when it comes to athletics; many of us used to be, or still are, top-notch athletes in other sports.
Speaking of generalizations, I find it laughable that you think PLers aren’t qualified to train any other type of athlete. We’re talking about strength coaching here, not necessarily skill coaches. I won’t even get into why the Wendlers, Tates, and Childresses of the world will ALWAYS teach more to an athlete than someone who only knows what a textbook has stated, but what you’re saying simply doesn’t make sense. What is King’s, or Poliquin’s, or whoever’s former sport? Are they only qualified to coach those athletes? Surely Poliquin hasn’t excelled at every sport that his athletes compete in?
By the way, you only further demonstrate your ignorance on the subject by talking about how Wendler wouldn’t know how to prepare someone for anything but PLing. This guy played D-1 football for a major bowl-winning team, and has been a part of many more sports than PLing in his past.
Budoka- You obviously fail to realize that bigmartin does have many of the same feelings as Dave Tate, among others, on this topic. He does speak for the majority of the elite PL community and top college strength coaches who use the conjugate method.
Steve, I recognize your points and they’re good ones. There is always room for an increase is maximal strength. I also agree the conjugate method kick the shit out of the systems that a lot of strength coaches use training balance, rotational strength, etc.
I wasn’t aware that Wendler trained/trains a D1 Football team. But it doesn’t surprise me that he was successful. I’m not as well versed a some in College football, but I imagine the number one athletic quality that is lacking in the average college football player is strength.
Now Wendler has accomplished much more than myslef to this point in our careers, so I can’t take much away from him. But what remains is that his skill set perhaps fits best with training football players. That’s probably why he works with football players. You still have to wonder where the skilled players (QB’s, WR’s, S’s, CB,s, etc) fall with in his training programs.
I don’t doubt the fact that there are more than a couple of exceptionally powerful individuals that post here. But to say that because they can chase down, out run or out jump any athlete is likely because you are gifted individuals with regards to nervous system capabilities and muscle attatchments and fiber types.
That’s also likely why you gravitated to a sport like powerlifting. Strong guys like to lift heavy things. Go figure. I may be generalizing but the point I’m trying to make still remains.
Did powerlifting create the superior strength or did the superiorily strengthed individual get stronger powerlifting?
Some Olympic lifting coaches train athletes like O’Lifters. Does that make their athletes better prepared? I’d say no. You can’t take one aspect of athletic preparation and apply to a given discipline and say that athlete has been prepared as best they can be.
Weight training is just a tool. Charlie Francis has spoken about how the training effect he got came from the sprinting, flexibility and strength training. Ben Johnson could squat 600 pounds. But being able to squat 600 pounds didn’t make him the world’s fastest man. Being the world’s fastest man allowed him to squat 600 pounds. It was the sprinting, not the squatting.
I believe that ‘generally’ is the case with most athletes. But I am generalizing. For my money, I’ll take King, Poliquin, Francis and others to train my athletes (or even myself). I’d be interested to see how Wendler or Tate approaches training a hockey player, baseball player or track athlete like a thrower. You can’t just paint them all with a powerlifting brush and expect them to perform to their potential.
It all comes down to complete athletic development. Not just maximal strength and power.
My boy Steve said it all…Peace Big Martin
Rob,
Now we’re getting somewhere in this conversation.
I completely agree with you that you can’t simply take an athlete and “paint him with a PL brush”, or any “brush” for that matter. What I guess I’m trying to tell you is that Wendler, Tate, Simmons, Childress, etc. don’t put all of their athletes on the same split and training cycle that they themselves use. I train alongside Paul Childress, and often times he brings some of his clients into our PLing area. What he has them doing, however, is often times not something you would ever see the rest of us doing. I just want people to realize that these guys know a heck of a lot about training and athletic preparation in general, not JUST powerlifting.
By the way, I didn’t say Wendler trains a D1 team…what I was saying is that he used to play for a major D1 team. I do believe, however, that he works with numerous college athletes including D1 basketball and football players. I know he has trained at least a handful of both.
As for which came first, the PLing or the capacity for strength, I think we both know that this could turn into a never-ending debate. From my perspective, I’ve seen both types of people, but most successful lifters will tell you that it’s taken them years to achieve their strength levels. Because of that reason, I have to lean towards the powerlifting making people much stronger than they otherwise would have been.
As for your final statement, I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree. I’d have to take Louie or Paul to train my athlete before anyone else, but then again, I’m sure both of our opinions on that reflect our training backgrounds and biases.
Bottom line, I jumped on you in the last post because I am sick of people making gross generalizations about PLers…don’t be so quick to think we’re a bunch of out of shape meatheads who only know how to lift heavy weights.
Steve. all in all, a very constructive debate. I appreciate that. I also appreciate you ‘setting me straight’ about Wendler and the rest. I appreciate your sentiments about people preceiving PL’ers as out of shape and lazy. I work very closely with a locally competitive PL’er and I know this is not the case.
But yes, this is a situation where we’ll have to agree to disagree. But that’s the beauty of this profession. I just don’t want you to get the impression that I’m presenting my contrarty views to stir debate or carve myself a portion of the market (so to speak). These are merely me beliefs as I know yours are yours as well.
It would be interesting to see who could do the better job. I’ve always hoped to be independently wealthy and just go from coach to coach, learning and seeing who can really do the best job. Given your comments, I’d give Wendler and Tate a shot.
Even though I still think Poliquin and the likes could do better;).
Good stuff, Rob. When Paul and I get his gym up and running here in Buffalo make a point to stop in at some point…check back with me late spring '04.
Another thing to keep in mind with PLing coaches, and especially the ones on the forefront of training, is that they don’t just follow something given to them by someone else. They analyze a physcial challenge and find ways to overcome the challenge. Thus, they devise ways to increase their total.
A strength coach should be able to look at the physical demands of an athlete and then devise ways to increase the performance of that athlete in his/her sport. PLing coaches that see powerlifting as a problem and their training as a solution are more likely to be able to help athletes in other sports.
Just some thoughts.
Actually I knew Dave Tate before I ever knew this site exsited. I went to one of his seminars when I was a athlete because he has a profound reputation of helping athletes in the Mid-West. Big Martin
pomanatschool-
Uhhh, okay buddy. I don’t think anyone mentioned “Westside for life” or “HIT for life” on this thread, but maybe I missed it.
You’re a bodybuilder if I recall, correct? Maybe that’s why you’ve never heard of some of these names…
Jared-
Good points.
Steve, I very well may take you up on that offer. I’m just a little bit north of you in Toronto. Could be a good opportunity.