If one was planning a virgin AS cycle and wanted to gain about 15 pounds that he could keep, and the cosmetic side of things was a factor (ie, need to keep skin and hair in very good condition), then what would be a sensible approach? Would Deca(400mg.p/w) and stanozolol(50mg.day) be ok, or should the stan be replaced with Primo? Or maybe even Primo and stan in higher doses and less Deca. Help and anecdotes appreciated. Training 4 yrs, 220/12%
Deca and Primo work the same way (at the androgen receptor (AR), and apparently not very effectively if at all by other non-AR-associated means, and so there is not that much point in combining them. It is sort of like taking one Bayer Aspirin and one St Joseph’s… you might as well have taken only one kind but taken two of them.
Are they identical drugs in terms of other effects including side effects? No. Primo is superior in that it causes much less inhibition of natural testosterone production at doses giving same anabolic effect, cannot cause gyno (Deca only rarely does but it can contribute towards gyno), and does not cause the mood problems that Deca often does at higher doses (mild doses of Deca, 400 mg/week or less, are usually OK.)
Deca is superior in that those with joint problems often find Deca to ease those problems, for reasons that are not understood but possibly due to progestagenic activity; and because Deca, almost uniquely among steroids, is made less active in the scalp and skin by the 5alpha-reductase enzyme, whereas Primobolan remains unchanged (and testosterone, on the other hand, becomes much more potent.) This means that with Deca, its androgen activity in the scalp and skin is less than what it is elsewhere in the body; while for Primo, it is the same; and for testosterone, it is much higher.
Either a Deca/Winstrol cycle, at the doses you mention, or a Primo/Winstrol cycle with no Deca, could accomplish your goals and be mild cycles.
With these drugs, you should be figuring on 6-8 weeks to achieve the 15 lb gain.
Thanks alot Bill. One question i forgot to ask was what should i take during and after the cycle so the testes don’t shutdown. Is clomid or similar product an essential? 50mg eod during and everyday for 2wks after sound ok?
Interesting, I’ve been hearing about the joint-improving qualities of deca, I’ve even had a couple of BJJ friends recommend it for that particular issue - but no one seems to actually have tried it themselves. What exactly are the beneficial effects of deca with regards to joints? The reason I’m asking is because I recently tore my ACL and it’s taking a while to recover. Any info would be appreciated.
The word “essential” is too strong for use of Clomid after a cycle, but “strongly advisable” is about correct. 300 mg on the first day on which you estimate androgen levels have dropped sufficiently for Clomid to be able to work, in six doses of 50 mg, and then 50 mg EVERY day after that, not every other day. There is no reason to cheap out like that: Clomid should be only about $1 per day to use at the correct dose. Going to EOD use is saving 50 cents per day. Not worth it.
In the case of your Primo/Winstrol cycle, if you did it that way, you could start the Clomid without any wait. If using Deca at 400 mg/week, then I'd wait a week after the last Deca injection before using the Clomid.
Bill, on the Deca/Win or Primo/Win cycle would Clomid use at 50mg eod be a good idea to reduce inhibition of HPTA slightly? I have read Deca has little estrogenic activity but is equally suppressive as Test. Would lowering endogenous Estrogen levels help later recovery?
The same question with the Primo/Winny which would have no estrogenic activity, but again would lowering the boy’s natural estrogen level minimise the slight supression?
Read Bill’s articles on HPTA suppression and recovery on the mesomorphosis pages. He basically says, if I may paraphrase, that clomid during a cycle can’t prevent HPTA suppression because androgens can suppress all by themselves, not just estrogen. I’m not sure if taking clomid during a cycle makes recovery quicker…it does help prevent gyno and bloating if taking aromatizing AAS, though.
I would like to look at the question of whether Clomid does help with natural testosterone while on a light androgen cycle, one where androgens are not sufficient to give complete inhibition: for example, a 400 mg/week Primo cycle. I have not done so. But since the blood test data I’ve received showed maintenance of normal T with that amount of Primo and with Clomid being used, and I don’t have any with Clomid not being used, I’d recommend using the Clomid. It certainly makes sense that it could help in that situation.
But as H pointed out, if the androgen cycle is heavy enough, as most serious cycles are, to shut down the HPTA just from androgens, then Clomid can’t fix that.