Core Buckles During Squat?

[jacob_1310]

Just wondering if a weak core/ unlocked/untensed core ( i know your meant to fill belly full of air etcetcetc) causes a buckle during the squat?

the video is somewhere of what happened. If you watch closer to my arse sitting on the box i do like a buckle kinda thing.

reasons why?

go

[Squatzenheimer]

Hard to tell from this video...I'm wondering if you're flopping down to the box because your hamstrings aren't strong enough. Again, hard for me to see what's going on here. I'm sure others will comment.

[Evolv]

I THINK (internet forum disclaimer there) it has to do with your posterior. So basically reinforcing what the above poster mentioned. Generally speaking, it simply looks like you have difficulty sitting back in the squat, which is usually a sign of weak hamstrings or glutes. At the same token, weak abs WILL cause you to fold over. But its hard to tell from this point of view, it might be a form issue. Take some side videos too.

[dwfox]

Yeah, Not a doctor and dont pretend to be one, but it appears you are trying to find the bench with your butt, instead of squatting to the depth of the bench and exploding up. In trying to find the bench, you lose tension in your girdle and core, and splash the bench, giving up all stored energy to get power generated to get back off it.

Dave Tate has some very informative videos on how to learn technique for the box squat.

Another mental thought i make when box squatting was something i heard Louie Simmons describe in one of his tutorials, and that is "Dont splash the box" What that means is is if the top of the box/bench was water, when you touch it, it should not splash like your jumping in a pool. You should simply make a small ripple with your butt. This keep tension and technique in proper proportion, and gives you the ability to get back off the box.

Increase girdle flexibility. Look into something so simple as buddha squats from the Mobility WOD guy.
http://www.mobilitywod.com/2011/06/episode-268365-donnie-thompson-10-min-squat-test-best-ever.html

(http://youtu.be/UbCaLZ8a0cw) Dave Tate Technique Link

[ragoo]

looks like weak hamstrings to me. You sat back under control to a certain point and then just collapsed onto the box. You should try raising the box to a height at which you can sit back with good form without falling down onto it. Then as you get stronger, you can begin to lower the height of the box more and more.

[boldar]

looks lk the weight is just to heavy bc of the complete lack of control sitting on the bench. it kind of looks lk you where leaning forward to much which is a sign of lack of ab strength. the lack of control sitting back shows lack of pchain strength.

lower the weight and try again

[jacob_1310]

thanks dwfox ive watched the vid multiple times but unless youve got someone in real life that knows what they are doing its hard to implement it. Definitely will try the mental note. Never even heard of a girdle until now LOL!

thanks for the replys, weak hamstrings, postier chain and abbs.

[DixiesFinest]

Stronger hamstrings and stronger core needed.

[iluvgmas]

If I had o guess I would say its a form issue, how long have you been squatting to a bench?
I exclusively squatted to a box for years and I eventually started doing the same thing i see you trying to do here(losing control during the descent and trying to bounce off the box)

My advice, free squat and ghrs if you find yourself collapsing at the torso you need more ab/low back work if you find yourself sinking down or not able to reverse yourself out of the bottom position
you need more hamstring/glute work

[jacob_1310]

iluvgmas wrote:
If I had o guess I would say its a form issue, how long have you been squatting to a bench?
I exclusively squatted to a box for years and I eventually started doing the same thing i see you trying to do here(losing control during the descent and trying to bounce off the box)

My advice, free squat and ghrs if you find yourself collapsing at the torso you need more ab/low back work if you find yourself sinking down or not able to reverse yourself out of the bottom position
you need more hamstring/glute work

hey mate
i've been box squatting about 3 or 4 months. Hitting the box isnt a problem. It was just that buckle during the descent and i just fell backwards. Didnt know what the fuck happened lol First time the buckle has happened. So as dixie & many others have said lower back + core work & hamstring work of course, always hamstring work. haha

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZcTzOJKAq8

there is the video of my lift before that lift and as you can see i didnt have the buckle during the descent, so my guess is it is lack of core strength.

[Aragorn]

In the first rep, You didn't buckle, but it looks like you are rocking off of the box, which is also not what you are supposed to do. The second you crashed and burned obviously :).

Is there a way you can get a view from the side next time? It might be slightly easier to tell other form problems from this side angle. I am questioning your chest/upper back tightness, elbow position, and how far you are sitting back. Basically, in the first rep you didn't buckle, but in addition to rocking off the box it didn't look like you were sitting back far enough. It looks like your chest is down the entire time, which inhibits tightness and makes it harder to keep your abs strong (preventing buckle)...and harder to get that stretch in the hamstrings to explode off the box (again preventing buckle). A down chest also can make you want to rock off the box in order to load up the hamstrings and get the stretch to power through (like a mini-good morning).

[jacob_1310]

Aragorn wrote:
In the first rep, You didn't buckle, but it looks like you are rocking off of the box, which is also not what you are supposed to do. The second you crashed and burned obviously :).

Is there a way you can get a view from the side next time? It might be slightly easier to tell other form problems from this side angle. I am questioning your chest/upper back tightness, elbow position, and how far you are sitting back. Basically, in the first rep you didn't buckle, but in addition to rocking off the box it didn't look like you were sitting back far enough. It looks like your chest is down the entire time, which inhibits tightness and makes it harder to keep your abs strong (preventing buckle)...and harder to get that stretch in the hamstrings to explode off the box (again preventing buckle). A down chest also can make you want to rock off the box in order to load up the hamstrings and get the stretch to power through (like a mini-good morning).

Thanks for your input. I too noticed elbow positioning, sinking chest. I am guessing that is from weak middle traps / upper back strength and have just started trying to target that weakness. My theory anyway. Ill upload a side angle on Wednesday sometime

[jacob_1310]

video of near maximal weight from side angle. Can definitly see what you mean by rocking off the box and elbow positioning etc etc. Anyway anything else you guys can pick up please tell. Thanks

[Aragorn]

Observations:

Big things:

1) You unrack the bar with your chest already down. This means that you are loose in the back to begin with. This is bad. You should never unrack the bar with your chest down. Your head is also looking down. This is bad. Keep your head up to help keep your chest up (although this varies a bit at the elite levels, but you're not there yet).

Unrack with your back already tight and your head up. Don't look down. lock your elbows down.

2) Your elbows are way too high. This forces your chest to stay down.

[jacob_1310]

Aragorn wrote:
Observations:

Big things:

1) You unrack the bar with your chest already down. This means that you are loose in the back to begin with. This is bad. You should never unrack the bar with your chest down. Your head is also looking down. This is bad. Keep your head up to help keep your chest up (although this varies a bit at the elite levels, but you're not there yet).

Unrack with your back already tight and your head up. Don't look down. lock your elbows down.

2) Your elbows are way too high. This forces your chest to stay down.

thanks aragorn. I actually just watched this video http://www.mobilitywod.com/2011/08/episode-306365-set-up-the-knee-hinge-joint-so-that-it-will-actually-hinge.html

he gives a great way to stay tight and keep back taught etc.
do you have any tips of keeping elbows down? or just play around with certain things?

[Aragorn]

jacob-1310 wrote:

Aragorn wrote:
Observations:

Big things:

1) You unrack the bar with your chest already down. This means that you are loose in the back to begin with. This is bad. You should never unrack the bar with your chest down. Your head is also looking down. This is bad. Keep your head up to help keep your chest up (although this varies a bit at the elite levels, but you're not there yet).

Unrack with your back already tight and your head up. Don't look down. lock your elbows down.

2) Your elbows are way too high. This forces your chest to stay down.

thanks aragorn. I actually just watched this video http://www.mobilitywod.com/2011/08/episode-306365-set-up-the-knee-hinge-joint-so-that-it-will-actually-hinge.html

he gives a great way to stay tight and keep back taught etc.
do you have any tips of keeping elbows down? or just play around with certain things?

well, really just force them down. Like a chin-up or lat pulldown. It's an actual force thing. If your back is tight enough (shoulders pulled BACK and together), the shelf should still be there when the elbows drop. The looser the back is the less you can drop the elbows because you are using them to create a shelf to set the bar on. So the fear is that you'll lose the bar off your back right? Well, if you tighten and squeeze your back together, and arch hard like you're doing a barbell row held to your chest, then it becomes "easier" to keep the shelf with elbows down.

Back tight means:

1) shoulders drawn back, not just your arms, your actual shoulder blades
2) think "stretch the chest" to pull those shoulders back
3) arch hard like holding a barbell row to your chest or an RDL
4) squeeze that as tight as you can and keep it there lol.

This is one reason I like training the back isolation work with a "squeeze and hold" contraction at the top. It's super draining, but it teaches you to hold that position, which is exactly what you need to do in a squat and powerlifting style bench.

[jacob_1310]

Aragorn wrote:

jacob-1310 wrote:

Aragorn wrote:
Observations:

Big things:

1) You unrack the bar with your chest already down. This means that you are loose in the back to begin with. This is bad. You should never unrack the bar with your chest down. Your head is also looking down. This is bad. Keep your head up to help keep your chest up (although this varies a bit at the elite levels, but you're not there yet).

Unrack with your back already tight and your head up. Don't look down. lock your elbows down.

2) Your elbows are way too high. This forces your chest to stay down.

thanks aragorn. I actually just watched this video http://www.mobilitywod.com/2011/08/episode-306365-set-up-the-knee-hinge-joint-so-that-it-will-actually-hinge.html

he gives a great way to stay tight and keep back taught etc.
do you have any tips of keeping elbows down? or just play around with certain things?

well, really just force them down. Like a chin-up or lat pulldown. It's an actual force thing. If your back is tight enough (shoulders pulled BACK and together), the shelf should still be there when the elbows drop. The looser the back is the less you can drop the elbows because you are using them to create a shelf to set the bar on. So the fear is that you'll lose the bar off your back right? Well, if you tighten and squeeze your back together, and arch hard like you're doing a barbell row held to your chest, then it becomes "easier" to keep the shelf with elbows down.

Back tight means:

1) shoulders drawn back, not just your arms, your actual shoulder blades
2) think "stretch the chest" to pull those shoulders back
3) arch hard like holding a barbell row to your chest or an RDL
4) squeeze that as tight as you can and keep it there lol.

This is one reason I like training the back isolation work with a "squeeze and hold" contraction at the top. It's super draining, but it teaches you to hold that position, which is exactly what you need to do in a squat and powerlifting style bench.

i try to do that as best i can, but maybe when i walk out i just become lose seeing as i breath lol. I like the idea of squeeze and hold. Definitely will do on rows. Might (most likely) is a the problem with my bench as well.

thanks for taking the time to lend advice.

[Aragorn]

No worries. Try this: on cable rows specifically, grab the v-grip and put the weight on something about 66% of your usual working weight for 8 reps.

Now, row as normal but WITHOUT the normal leaning back you get in a cable row (ie--no body english).

Instead, do three things: 1) try to squeeze your elbows together and touch them behind your back at the finish of each rep 2) at the SAME TIME you do that, ARCH your chest up (not out) as hard as you can, like in a squat. But remember to do this without actualy leaning ypur whole body back, meaning keep your torso straight up and down, or close to it. Basically try to touch your shoulder blades and your tailbone together 3) hold each squeeze on each rep for 3-4 seconds.

That is the kind of tightness you should have in your back when you unrack the weight. Take short rest intervals between sets (like less than 45 seconds). You can do this on any row variation, but it is easiest to feel on cable rows and lat pulldowns for me personally.