T Nation

Controlling Estrogen with High Doses


Since it gets harder to get the sweet spot for an AI the higher you dose aromatizing gear, I was considering this as a protocol for Rock steady estrogen levels.

1) Dose letrozole at a high enough dose to drop estrogen to near zero levels. 2.5mg would do for most people at reasonably high levels of test.

2) Use either transdermal patch or cream to provide your bodies estrogen requirements, bloodwork would be needed, due to variances in transdermal absorption but dosing guidelines for men are available in the literature.

This would allow rock steady estrogen control for heavy cycles. It would also mitigate the sides from high doses of other aromatising gear like dbol. The only downside I can see is tapering off the letrozole.

I was wondering what anyone else thinks of this?


I was thinking this could also be done with clomid. Clomid supposedly has estrogen like effects on mood and libido. It's also a partial agonist in places like the liver, so there probably wouldn't be the serious issues that a person normally would have if they were to have no estrogen (low HDL etc.)

In my opinion, this is the best option for estrogen replacement while on cycle. Raloxifene might be even more estrogenic (agonist versus partial agonist) than clomid, so that could be an even better choice. The benefits of using a SERM instead of pure estrogen are that the dose would be much easier to control, the effects would be more predictable, and the effects would be skewed in a positive direction (more of an increase in libido, less water retention).

Another option is to use tren (or another nonaromatizing steroid) at a high dose, and add, for example, one synovex pellet per ten finaplix pellets. This would allow for precise estrogen control. Natural estrogen production would stop within a few weeks, and the trenbolone would be the main androgen. The problem with patches is that the dose varies from person to person, patch to patch, and even day to day. With intraamuscular estrogen, the exact dose would be known, and could be easily varied.

If you're using only nonaromatizing steroids, it might be a good idea to add a source of DHT. You won't be able to use testosterone, because some testosterone will always aromatize, even if you're using an AI. You could use pure DHT if you can find it. Masteron or proviron might be good replacements for DHT.

I think these are all good ideas. I know it's possible for some people to drive estrogen very low (too low)with letrozole, but still have issues with water retention and nipple sensitivity on certain steroids, like dbol. I don't know why that'd happen. Maybe the estrogen from dbol (methylestrogen?) is more effective in the breasts than the pituitary.

Anyway, I think estrogen replacement is a good idea. I think you should experimen, and report back. I don't know if I'd be willing to be the first person to try these ideas. They're not dangerous, but natural estrogen produciton might take a while to resume, or it might come back too high.

I think if someone is on TRT, a good protocol is 200mg masteron per week and 50mg clomid per day. I'm just making guesses with all of this, though.


I'm seriously considering giving it a try. I would rather use transdermal estradiol since its naturally present in the body, and the SERMS do not provide all the functions of estrogen. From what I understand, estrogen creams are much more stable in dosing than patches.


I wouldn't use a patch because the dose will probably be too high. If you want to do this, you need to figure out how much estrogen you should take, I wouldn't just slap on an estrogen patch. I don't know how much estrogen a man produces per day, in milligrams (estrogen is ~100x more potent than testosterone per mg). But, there's a way to figure it out based on lab results for TRT. If I remember correctly, TRT results are ng/mL. So you need to figure out how many liters of blood you have and multiply that by the optimal range for estrogen in men.

Also, with a patch, you'd have no idea how much estrogen you're actually taking. You might end up with a lower dose on days that you're particularly sweaty.

Which steroids do you want use for this? For some reason I think it'd be safer, and the results would be more predictable iif you use only nonaromatizing steroids instead of test and high dose letro. By not messing with your aromatase, you'll be able to take a dose of testosterone and return to normal if there's a problem.

I remember reading on here that Tren-Freak used something like 200mg tren, 50mg winstrol per day as a precontest cycle. So, using only nonaromatizing steroids isn't unheard of. I'd guess that taking a low dose of estrogen would help lessen side effects when on that sort of cycles.

Here's what I would do:

500-750mg tren-a per week
300mg masteron per week
30mg winstrol per day
25mg proviron per day

Oral, low dose, estrogen only birth control. Your dose will probably be like an eighth of a tablet. You could make a liquid suspension, like people do with adex for TRT.
synovex-h pellet homebrew testosterone/estrogen

extra stuff:
10mg exemestane per day for the first few weeks


I guess using non aromatising gear could be a good way of testing it out. I was originally intending it for higher doses of testosterone. The other benefit to inhibiting aromatase so strongly is the reduction in sides from using higher doses of dbol. Using estrogen on androgenic cycles like the one you outlined above is a good idea I think.

As for oral estrogen, or birth control; It would make dosing easier, but at the same time all of the negative clotting properties of external estrogen have been linked to oral administration due to the liver. Transdermal is the healthly way to go. Using creams is the way to go, with common HRT doses most hormone is absorbed within a couple of hours and levels are kept very steady.


I found this: http://www.questdiagnostics.com/kbase/topic/detail/drug/te7768/detail.htm


Speficially which patch or cream do you want to use? I can figure out how to do the math and see if the dose will be too high. I don't know if they still make estrogen only BC. It seems like the two choices are syntheic progesterone only, or synthetic estrogen and progesterone, even with the creams and patches. I can't any BC that contains actual, bioidentical estrodiol

Also, have you tried knocking out most of the estrogen with letrozole? I haven't done a high dose cycle with lots of aromatizables. My guess is, though, that if you using like over a gram a week of test, and dbol preworkout only, your estrogen levels would be all over the place, and you might not be able to get your estrogen levels down to 0, even with 2.5mg letro. Letrozole causes something like a 90% reduction in estrogen in women, with high dose dbol it might be a smaller percentage.

You could stack letrozole with exemestane and clomid. The 2.5mg letro + 40mg exemestane will help get rid off all the estrogen. You could then take clomid as a way to make sure your estrogen levels don't get too high.

If you accidently end up with too much estrogen by using an estrogen patch, an AI won't help lower estrogen levels. Clomid or nolva can lower estrogen levels immediately, because SERMS bind to estrogen receptors more strongly than estrogen itself, and don't cause as strong of an effect. So, I'd get both nolva and clomid before the cycle, just in case. You could even run a low dose of nolva with the estrogen just as a precaution.

I'm really interested in this idea. I think it could help make both cycles with lots of dbol, and tren only cycles more comfortable. People have been running cycles the same way for a while. Maybe low dose, estrogen only birth control for men could be the next new popular method of anabolic steroids.


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Fair enough, you're entitled to your opinion. But you can't just call us idiots without explaining why its such a bad idea? This thread is just something I was thinking about. I posted it to get feedback, so please contribute some scientific reasoning why its retarded and then you can call me an idiot to my face lol.


I have found that when increasing the dose of test, arimidex isn't strong enough for me, and letrozole is too strong and hard to dose correctly. I have found a reasonable dosing regime for it though. Its definately strong enough for me though, 1.25mg per day was enough to nail my joints and make me feel like shit on just under a gram of test a week.


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Fair points, and to be honest I had thought it through myself and thought "is this overcomplicating things". What prompted the idea was my own experience with AI's as ive mentioned above. I do think there is some merit in it though, since I have noticed that when using dbol at reasonable doses, when I have had the least estrogen control I have had the most sides, acne especially.

You are right that we could be missing something with regards to stamping out endogenous estradiol, I thought that since I would be using bioidentical estrodiol anyway it wouldn't matter. I also do know where I can get bio-identical estradiol in a cream form.

The other benefit is being able to increase dosages along the way without having to worry about balancing estrogen again. I think there is some merit to occasional dosage ramps but some people will disagree.


Even with TRT, doesn't it seem sort of silly to rely on the conversion of testosterone to estrogen for proper estrogen levels? It'd be a lot easier to replace estrogen with a fixed, known dose, then trying to balance the amount of aromatase enzyme with the amount of testosterone with the amount of letrozole. Estrogen is an important hormone for men. I think estrogen can be more important for libido than testosterone, in some circumstances.

It sounds complicated but it's a simple idea and it could be useful in different situations. I'm suprised TRT people aren't doing it already, considering how cortisone, DHEA, DHEA-S, etc. supplementation is becoming popular.

Can you explain what the problem would be with supplementing estrogen?