T Nation

Contreras on Assisted Lifters

I know this has been a very interesting topic of conversation in the past, whether natty folks can train in a similar fashion as their assisted breteren. Some people from either camp will freely acknowledge certain benefits, while others always come back to the “steroids don’t lift the weights for you” argument.

Personally, I’ve always held the view that there are certain benefits that you’d be foolish to ignore, but never would I ever discount anyone’s hard worth and discipline no matter their chosen approach.

Anyway, a buddy of mine (fellow Wnbf Pro) threw this up on FB, and I thought it was a good read that should elicit some thoughtful comments and discussion.

*** Just a note - there’s a whole lotta technical stuff from the middle to the end on different substances, doses etc. I don’t pretend to know minutae about gear, and I’m intentionally not posting this in the PED forum, so feel free to gloss over that part, I know I did -lol.

S


[Taken from Bret Contreras’ web site:]

â??Youâ??re All a Bunch of Pathetic Weaklings,â?? Says the Steroid Using Powerlifter

â??Why is it, that weak lifters always have to make the claim that stronger people are using steroids?â??

Recently, an anabolic steroid using powerlifting poked fun of me (a natural lifter) for being weak. When I asked him if he used steroids (I already knew the answer to the question), rather than answer me, the anabolic steroid using powerlifter replied with the question above.

I would now like to take the time to answer this question. Hereâ??s why.

Anabolic steroids make the average lifter WAY stronger and more muscular. When steroids are added to the mix, it changes the rules.

For the record, I have no problem with lifters who use anabolic steroids. Dozens of lifting partners of mine over the years have used them, and I honestly couldnâ??t care less, as long as they went about it in a wise and safe manner. However, I have a HUGE problem with anabolic steroid using lifters who poke fun of natural lifters for being weak. In fact, I believe itâ??s one of the most deplorable things I see on the internet. Think about it â?? these individuals are taking substances that artificially make them bigger and stronger, then going around and bullying lifters who are natural. If you do this, it makes you absolutely pathetic.

Lately, Iâ??ve seen an onslaught of comments from steroid-using powerlifters that are quite puzzling to say the least. Here are two of them: â??Steroids donâ??t do the work for you, sure they help you recover faster but you still have to put in the work,â?? and, â??Natural lifters love to play the steroid card, but 90% of it is hard work, nutrition, and consistency.â?? WHO DO THEY THINK THEYâ??RE KIDDING? Do these guys really believe this? Steroid-using powerlifters and bodybuilders donâ??t work any harder than natural powerlifters and bodybuilders. We all put in the work, itâ??s just that steroid-users have drastically altered physiology which causes them to see much greater gains.

In my experience, many steroid-users grossly underestimate the role that steroids play in their strength development. Iâ??d have a lot more respect for the lifter who admitted that without steroids, heâ??d be pretty ordinary in terms of strength and physique. In fact, one of my lifting friends openly admits this, and it cracks me up. Heâ??s a jacked cop (ironic, I know), and heâ??s said on numerous occasions that, â??Man, before I took roids, you could barely tell I lifted weights. Now guys envy my physique and women flock to me.â?? This guy is honest to a fault, but he makes us all laugh.

Many steroid-using powerlifters donâ??t have a good grip on what transfers best for the natural lifter, and they donâ??t optimally understand program design for the natural lifter. Why? Because many of them have never controlled variables. Fluctuating drug cycles confound training/nutrition cycles. Because when the going got tough, many of them simply took more steroids. Many figure out quickly that taking another gram of testosterone or adding in trenbolone transferred very well to strength and got them through their training ruts.

Because it came too easy for many of them. Most never spent 8 months hammering the bench press, only to gain a meager 10 lbs of strength. Many never took the time to learn the effects of different protocols. When they were stagnating, many simply took more juice.

It reminds me of this Robert DeNiro speech in Limitless.

As a consequence, Iâ??ve found that many training programs written by steroid users are too harsh for natural lifters; some of these programs contain excessive volume which the average natural lifter could not recover from. This is why itâ??s important for lifters and coaches working with natural lifters to train naturally themselves (or at least cycle on and off for ample amounts of time) and to train or train with natural lifters.

Now that Iâ??ve gotten that off of my chest, Iâ??d like to discuss some aspects of testosterone and androgen usage. There are several articles that I will call upon, which are linked below. Please click on them if youâ??d like to download the full papers.

-POSITION STAND ON ANDROGEN AND HUMAN GROWTH HORMONE USE

-Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men

-THE EFFECTS OF SUPRAPHYSIOLOGIC DOSES OF TESTOSTERONE ON MUSCLE SIZE AND STRENGTH IN NORMAL MEN

-Testosterone Concentrations in Women Aged 25â??50 Years: Associations with Lifestyle, Body Composition, and Ovarian Status

Testosterone Facts
The first thing you should know about testosterone is how much a normal person makes. Healthy men produce approximately 4.0â??9.0 mg of testosterone per day, with blood concentrations ranging from 300 to 1,000 ng/dL (10.4â??34.7 nmol/L). Females typically make 1/10 to 1/20 of this amount and have blood concentrations in the range of 15 to 65 ng/dL (0.5â??2.3 nmol/L).

So, if youâ??re a male, your testicles pump out approximately 7 mgs/day of testosterone. In males, around 95% of this testosterone is made in the Leydig cells of the testis, whereas 5% is made via conversion in the adrenal cortex. Around 2% of this testosterone is free (unbound) in the bloodstream, whereas 35-38% is bound to albumin and 60-63% is bound to sex-hormone-binding-globulin (SHBG). In women, around 50% of testosterone is produced through peripheral conversion of androstenedione, with the remainder of production concentrated in the ovary (25 percent) and adrenal cortex (25 percent).

Quantities Taken by Elite Lifters
Now letâ??s look at what amounts the top lifters are taking. Here is a quote from a recent Ryan Kennelly video. For those of you who donâ??t know who Ryan Kennelly is, he used to be the strongest geared bench presser in the world, until he got put behind bars for selling steroids and other drugs. Hereâ??s what Ryan had to say about steroid use and strength development.

â??Basically later on in life instead of getting steroids from my friends and having to buy them, I got on the internet and realized that they can be purchased on the Internet in raw form. Basically testosterone powder and all the raw forms of the ingredients and it was much cheaper. So I invested in that because in 2003 when I benched eight hundred and knew I had to go for 900 I knew I needed a large amount of steroids.

The amount that I was taking like I referenced earlier, waking up to three syringes which was nine ccâ??s pointing up in the air in the bathroom when I woke up each morning. I also ended up going to the ranch home store because, why have three needles when you can buy a large syringe that were used for horses that had like 25 CCâ??s/25 milliliters and just fill that up? So the amount of steroids that I had were for personal use and not for resale or distribution.

Let me make a point, the amount that I was taking in 2003 consisted of at that time, going for 900 pounds, I was taking twenty five hundred milligrams of testosterone a week, eight hundred milligrams of nandrolone deconate a week, 75 milligrams of dbol a day and there was also fast-acting testosterones that I was taking upwards of a hundred milligrams of those a day.

The long-acting testosterone from my calculations the plasma half-life is about 14 days they kick in in about seven days but seven days wasted I need some thatâ??s kicking in now. I would take testosterone propionate or testosterone no ester that I would make up myself in oil with sterile alcohol, sterile needles, sterile syringe filters. I would make bottles of it because I was going through upwards (bottle holds pan 10-13 milliliters of liquid) through roughly 10 bottles every 10 days at the time.

At that point it didnâ??t seem like a lot because if you know anything about injecting and how steroids work in the body, there are things your body called receptors. They are like flowers and after a while your flower start to will, meaning the amount youâ??re taking to 1500 milligrams and youâ??re not getting the desired effect. This is because your body is not accepting it so in return you take more. Or you take more of a different ester like testosterone cypionate is one ester. You take twenty five hundred milligrams. Once your body gets used to that, you change to testosterone enanthate, which can attach it to a different receptor.

By juggling these things at the time you learn that you can only inject so much. Your body can only handle so much injected into itself. Then you start consuming these oral powders and using insulin as a transport drug. What insulin does is it unlocks the cells in your muscle and it is very dangerous taking insulin. People could die and itâ??s something you go to your local Walmart and buy a bottle of humulin-r insulin for twenty-five dollars. Basically what insulin does is it shuttleâ??s all what you consume in your body into your muscle.

So basically I was taking the steroid powders, taking a tablespoon of certain ones adding it with orange flavored tang and I would drink these throughout the course the day. I would inject this medium acting insulin that in my mind, according to other athletes I spoke with at the Arnold classic and other athletes from overseas, this a technique that they are using now. They claimed increased water retention increased size and increase strength.

So on top of injecting 3- 4,000 milligrams a week I was also consuming orally as time went on. This upset my stomach, made me pale, and made me puke. That didnâ??t last very long because you cannot lift and gain weight when your pale sick and puking. In my mind thatâ??s not going to be what benefits you in the long run.â??

Ignoring the fact that Ryan was wrong about some of his steroid knowledge, he confesses to taking the following amounts of steroids:

â?¢2,500 mgs testosterone enanthate per week
â?¢800 mgs of deca durabolin per week
â?¢75 mgs of dianabol per day (525 mgs/wk)
â?¢100 mgs of testosterone propionate per day (700 mgs/wk)
â?¢4,525 mgs of anabolic steroids per week

When Ryan wanted to get to a 1,000 lb bench press, he knew he needed even more steroids. He didnâ??t mention that he needed another two years of solid training, where heâ??d periodize his training and implement strategic assistance lifts at various time points. It was all about the steroids. He knew that this amount would take him to this level, and to get to the next level, heâ??d need to take this amount. At any rate, letâ??s compare the milligrams of androgens for a natural lifter and world class bench presser:

Natural Lifter: 7 mgs testosterone/day
Ryan Kennelly: 646 mgs androgens/day

It has been reported that many top bodybuilders will take between 1,000-2,000 mgs/wk of anabolic steroids per week, with some reaching up to 5,000 mgs/wk (see HERE, HERE, and HERE). Iâ??ve heard rumors of powerlifting gyms bragging that their main lifters take a minimum of 3,000 mgs/wk of testosterone as a base, while adding orals on top of it. As I mentioned earlier, normal blood levels of testosterone range from 300-1,000 ng/dL.

It has been reported that pro bodybuilders tend to have testosterone levels of around 3,500 ng/dL, with a maximum of 21,000 ng/dL (see HERE), but keep in mind that theyâ??re taking a lot more than just testosterone (they also might be taking steroids with names such as Deca-Durabolin, Dianabol, Winstrol, Primobolan, Equipoise, or Trenbolone, along with other drugs such as IGF-1, Cytomel, Human Growth Hormone, and Clenbuterol).

What Does Testosterone Do?
Here are the various effects of testosterone:

â?¢Increases lean body mass
â?¢Increases cardiac tissue mass
â?¢Decreases body fat percentage
â?¢Increases isometric and dynamic muscle strength and power
â?¢Enhances recovery ability between workouts
â?¢Increases protein synthesis, accretion, and nitrogen retention
â?¢Decreases catabolism
â?¢Increases muscle cross-sectional area
â?¢Stimulates growth of the epiphyseal plate
â?¢Increases erythropoiesis, hemoglobin, and hematocrit
â?¢Increased vasodilation
â?¢Increases bone mineral content, density, and markers of bone growth
â?¢Regulation of osteoblasts, bone matrix production, and organization
â?¢Increases glycogen and creatine phosphate storage
â?¢Increases lipolysis and low-density lipoproteins and decreases high-density lipoproteins
â?¢Increases neural transmission, neurotransmitter release, myelinization, and regrowth of damaged peripheral nerves
â?¢Repression of myostatin
�Behavior modi�cation (i.e., aggression)
â?¢Acute elevations in skeletal intramuscular calcium concentrations
â?¢Decreases sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG)
â?¢Increased androgen receptor density (depending on the androgen, the dose, the duration, the muscle, and the tissue)
â?¢Increased satellite cells and androgen receptors in satellite cells
Many are aware of some of these effects, but most arenâ??t aware of all of them. Testosterone works through a variety of anabolic, anti-catabolic, neural, and psychological mechanisms.

How Does Testosterone Effect Strength, Hypertrophy, and Body Composition?
Hopefully you downloaded the articles that I linked earlier and can explore the studies to a greater extent, but here are a couple of highlights from two of those papers:

In the following study, subjects were given either 25 mg, 50 mg, 125 mg, 300 mg, or 600 mgs of testosterone per week. The graphs below illustrate that testosteroneâ??s effects on hypertrophy are fairly linear.

In the study below, subjects were given 600 mgs/wk of testosterone. In the group that exercised, this caused total testosterone levels to raise by approximately 800%, and free-testosterone levels to raise by over 600%. As you can see below, taking ample testosterone is better for hypertrophy than lifting weights, and taking testosterone on top of exercising is markedly better for strength than exercising-alone.

Anabolic Steroids are Used with Females Too
Most people assume that anabolic steroids are used only by males, but many top female powerlifters, top female bodybuilders, top female figure competitors, and even top female bikini competitors take anabolic steroids too. They do not openly discuss this, as they would be judged and ridiculed too extensively, but nevertheless itâ??s happening all over the world.

In this case, they donâ??t take testosterone as itâ??s more harsh for women and leads to too many undesirable side effects. Therefore, theyâ??ll often take oxandralone (aka Anavar), which has a favorable anabolic: androgenic ratio for women. Because women typically possess 5-10% of the blood levels of testosterone that men do, they tend to respond very well to small doses of androgens such as oxandralone.

For this reason, often the routines espoused by steroid-using female lifters tend to not be progressive enough for natural lifting women.

It Goes Both Ways
While the steroid-using lifters need to be sympathetic of the natural lifters, the natural lifters also need to be sympathetic of the steroid-using lifters. Many natural guys tend to assume that if they did a steroid cycle, theyâ??d blow up and be just like Dan Green. First of all, just like with natural lifting, thereâ??s a large inter-individual variation in the response to steroids. Some guys blow up and other guys donâ??t grow too much. Second, these guys should certainly be respected as theyâ??re putting a boatload of weight on their backs or in their hands every day.

One minor mistake can lead to Snap City. When youâ??re squatting 3 hundy, you have more wiggle room with improper form, but with a grand, your form better be spot on. This is why bodybuilders often adjust their programs so theyâ??re not using so much weight on big lifts, for example utilizing pre-exhaustion techniques, high reps, drop sets, ultra-strict form, and pause reps.

Finally, the life of a steroid-user is not as glamorous as it seems. Steroids are expensive and illegal. They can do jail time if caught, and there are a lot of ancillary drugs and supplements that must also be taken to minimize the damage to their organs or to keep certain hormones in normal ranges (ex: Nolvadex). Their bloodwork (hematocrit, cholesterol profile, etc.) and blood pressure is often atrocious.

They battle with sleep apnea and fluctuating moods, and many have trouble performing simple daily task such as wiping their butts or washing their backs. Last, their caloric intake is much higher (and expensive), and it becomes a chore to meet calorie and protein requirements day in and day out. The grass is not always greener on the other side.

Conclusion
Most of us lifters couldnâ??t care less if our colleagues experiment with anabolic steroids. Personally, I donâ??t judge lifters who take roids. However, I do have a problem with steroid-using lifters who surf the net and poke fun of natural lifters, and with steroid-using lifters who deny or attempt to understate their efficacy. If you take anabolic steroids, remain humble and enjoy your expedited strength and hypertrophic gains. Ripping on natural lifters when you take steroids make you a pathetic, mentally-fragile bully.

Ten years ago, I did some MMA training for a couple of years. We had around a dozen gym rats come through our doors during this time, and most of them only lasted a day. Theyâ??d get choked out or pounded around by guys half their size, and the vast majority had egos that got the best of them which enticed them to quit on the spot. I canâ??t help but wonder if some of these same bullying powerlifters would poke fun of the much weaker MMA fighters if they were face-to-face.

If so, theyâ??d get their butts handed to them. I respect powerlifting strength very much, but I respect humility even more. At any rate, I hope this article sheds some light on why natural lifters â??play the steroid cardâ?? when steroid-using lifters are talking smack.

My take on it is people do not want to believe that their hard work is not what makes them special. They want to believe that, even without taking steroids, they’d still be a pretty jacked dude. And honestly, some would be. Even look at this site for examples. A couple guys were big guys before using.

If it were truly the case that “steroids don’t help that much”, why would so many people who don’t compete use illegal substances that only provide another supposedly pound or two of muscle?

Anyone who has any experience what-so-ever with lifting weights know they still have to put work in. But if they put in the exact same work as the natural guy, there’s no question they would gain significant more muscle. Otherwise, why would anyone even do it?

Someone trying to negate the role steroids played in their development just strikes me as someone who convinced themselves that it’s there own personal effort and dedication led them to put on those extra 10 pounds compared to the natural guy last year rather than the assistance. Seems like a pride thing.

There’s nothing wrong with using, and guys who excel at this sport while using are undoubtedly putting in more hard work and more consistent work than most people, assisted or not.

It makes me lose respect for people when they freely admit they use, and then in the next sentence talk about how the drugs really aren’t that important for their success and how their hard work led them to their development. Well yeah, it’s obvious you did work hard but come on man.

I’ve never known an assisted lifter to take the piss out of a natty for being weaker.

I must just lift with nicer people than Bret does.

[quote]staystrong wrote:
My take on it is people do not want to believe that their hard work is not what makes them special. [/quote]

I think you hit the nail on the head with your first sentence.

Haven’t read the thing, but let’s face it Contreras is pretty damn weak for a NATTY. I think he deserves to get called out for his shit. I guess his whole glute hip thrust bullshit didn’t work out for him after all, despite it being the biggest thing since sliced bread.

Anyway, anybody with a bit experience and half a brain should be able to rather adequately rate certain performances and physiques of assisted and non-assisted lifters.

what if…juice was the only way to get glutes. Ole Bret would sure be screwed then.

[quote]Yogi wrote:
I’ve never known an assisted lifter to take the piss out of a natty for being weaker.

I must just lift with nicer people than Bret does.[/quote]

To be fair, Bret does come off as a whiney douche in his writing. I’d make fun of him for that alone.

Also, his technique on the Powerlifts leave much to be desired.

Ironically, he needs to learn how to use his glutes better in his non-existent leg drive on the bench, among other things.

That whole article came off as a whinney sob story.

It’s not all steroids. Glute Dr can take all the roids he wants and he will never be as big as Ronnie, as strong as Dan Green or as big/strong as Marzuis (who he uses as the cover photo of his article)

Nvm

I haven’t heard
Of this phenomenon of lifters on gear calling Natty’s weak…I think the glute god made this interaction up to make up for his lifting inadequacies

[quote]MattyXL wrote:
I haven’t heard
Of this phenomenon of lifters on gear calling Natty’s weak…I think the glute god made this interaction up to make up for his lifting inadequacies[/quote]
To be fair, I’m sure there are a lot of geared guys calling him weak… Because he is lol. Tons of natty guys would call him weak too.

400 squat and 300 bench in that comp? Not strong numbers lol

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]MattyXL wrote:
I haven’t heard
Of this phenomenon of lifters on gear calling Natty’s weak…I think the glute god made this interaction up to make up for his lifting inadequacies[/quote]
To be fair, I’m sure there are a lot of geared guys calling him weak… Because he is lol. Tons of natty guys would call him weak too.

400 squat and 300 bench in that comp? Not strong numbers lol[/quote]

hip thrusts like a champ though! haha

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]MattyXL wrote:
I haven’t heard
Of this phenomenon of lifters on gear calling Natty’s weak…I think the glute god made this interaction up to make up for his lifting inadequacies[/quote]
To be fair, I’m sure there are a lot of geared guys calling him weak… Because he is lol. Tons of natty guys would call him weak too.

400 squat and 300 bench in that comp? Not strong numbers lol[/quote]
For him they may be. He seems pretty tall with long limbs.

Aw which big bad 2g-5g/week test pinning roidhead had the audacity to mock poor sensitive little bret?

Paul Carter’s response…

Hey Bret, you’re just a little off here…
I happened across this article from booty guy Bret Contreras this morning, and while interesting and informative, is also just a little bit off in some regards…

First off, I want to say I agree with Bret on a few things.

Namely, I don’t think it’s cool for anyone to look down on another lifter who is natural if he is enhanced.

Hell, I will take that one step further. I don’t think we as lifters should be looking down on each other at all, thought it does happen at times, and even I have been guilty of this. But it’s a bad habit and all of us need to do a better job of offering up the minimum amount of respect to each other for simply putting in the work, and being brothers in iron.

With that said, I want to go over some things Bret wrote in this piece…

Anabolic steroids make the average lifter WAY stronger and more muscular. When steroids are added to the mix, it changes the rules.

This is more or less a half truth.

Some guys respond really well to drugs, and some guys get very little. All the studies in the world don’t back up all the years and years of anecdotal evidence behind what I am saying here.

Some guys can take a little, and get a lot out of it. And some guys can take a lot, and get very little.

Taking anabolics will make you stronger and more muscular, but the degree to which it will varies greatly from person to person. So my gripe here is using the words “WAY stronger”.

One thing missed in this is that some guys can’t take a large enough dose to get “WAY stronger” because they end up with side effects so great that “upping the dose” isn’t possible for them.

Regardless of what guys read on the internet, or what studies read, each individual will respond quite differently to different drugs. I know guys that flat out cannot take tren because of the side effects they get from it. And I know guys that can run a gram a week with virtually no side effects at all. There is no “one size fits all” model here.

I also know guys that can run tren, and get almost superhuman strong on it, and I’ve had other guys tell me they got very little from it. So if you’re using the phrase “way stronger” or “more muscular” then I guess we’ll play semantic games. Some guys get “way stronger” from the same compounds that another guy does not get “way stronger” from. The same rule applies to the “more muscular” quote. That is a pretty ambiguous term, to say the least. I’ve known guys that got “more muscular” from cycles but not to the degree you would expect, given their overall dose.

So this is a fairly broad stroked phrase.

Steroids don?t do the work for you, sure they help you recover faster but you still have to put in the work,? and, ?Natural lifters love to play the steroid card, but 90% of it is hard work, nutrition, and consistency.?

I have to agree with the guys that said this.

Regardless of how much a guys drug cycle is doing for him, if his training and diet are not dialed in, then just like a natural trainer, his results are going to be sub-optimal. Now will those sub-optimal results still be greater than what he would get if he weren’t on cycle? Of course. But training and diet are still going to be the corner stone of efficient and optimal results.

In other words, both the drug user and natural guy can’t take advantage of their “environment”, i.e. a highly advanced anabolic state/natural genetics unless he makes training and diet the most important parts of his program. Otherwise they both end up with the short end of the stick. Again, this doesn’t mean the drug users short end isn’t longer than it would be if he were natural, but the drug user is doing himself a massive disservice if he isn’t programming and eating in the most efficient manner as possible.

In my experience, many steroid-users grossly underestimate the role that steroids play in their strength development. I?d have a lot more respect for the lifter who admitted that without steroids, he?d be pretty ordinary in terms of strength and physique.

That completely depends on when the guy started using anabolics, and what he accomplished naturally. Ronnie Coleman became an IFBB pro completely natural, I do believe. Now he didn’t start winning Mr. O titles until he found the “holy grail” however there are LOTS of guys out there that have built impressive strength and physiques without playing the drug card. I myself managed to work my way up to 250 pounds without being a total fat ass before I ever took a single thing, and was accused on being “on” quite often.

I could name off about two dozen guys that are incredibly impressive as natural strength athletes. So I feel that your broad stroke here is again unwarranted. SOME guys might be unimpressive completely natural, but this doesn’t apply to everyone. Genetic ability ranges greatly from world class sprinters and powerlifters to dudes that can’t get off the couch without tripping over their Xbox controller while covered in Cheesy Puffs crumbs.

Many steroid-using powerlifters don?t have a good grip on what transfers best for the natural lifter, and they don?t optimally understand program design for the natural lifter. Why? Because many of them have never controlled variables. Fluctuating drug cycles confound training/nutrition cycles. Because when the going got tough, many of them simply took more steroids. Many figure out quickly that taking another gram of testosterone or adding in trenbolone transferred very well to strength and got them through their training ruts. Because it came too easy for many of them. Most never spent 8 months hammering the bench press, only to gain a meager 10 lbs of strength. Many never took the time to learn the effects of different protocols. When they were stagnating, many simply took more juice.

Eh, this is misinformed at best.

I know of at least one guy that literally got worse, or at least he didn’t get any better, over a 4 year span despite virtually doubling his dose in that time.

It’s not as simple as “taking more drugs” for every guy out there. Yes, that works for some guys, and doesn’t work for others. There will always be a point of diminishing returns when it comes to “doses”.

Not only that, I know lots of guys that use and work their asses off for very little in the way of returns. I know guys that spent a year working the shit out of their bench or squat to add that extra 10-15 pounds on it. There comes a point when even with drugs, you start to reach your genetic ceiling and no amount of drugs can push you past it without an incredible amount of hard work. In that regard, the user is no different than the natural trainer. When both of them get close to the ceiling of what their environment is allowing, then it’s going to take a metric fuckton of hard work to inch upwards even in the smallest of increments.

As a consequence, I?ve found that many training programs written by steroid users are too harsh for natural lifters; some of these programs contain excessive volume which the average natural lifter could not recover from.

I used to believe this too. However what I’ve really figured out is, that it’s not the recovery factor that comes into play. It’s that the drug user tends to see results faster than the natural dude. I’ve never had to adjust for a guy being on or not. Some may find that hard to believe, but it’s true. And I’ve never had a client that didn’t see extraordinary results. In fact, I’ve had some guys that were on drugs, that actually needed MORE recovery time than guys that were natural. It came back to things like age, and injury history as being the reasons why. So once again, there are too many factors here at play than JUST drugs in that regard.

In your last segment you go into the drug cycles as listed by Ryan Kennelly, and basically paint the picture that Ryan’s drug cycle was the primary reason for his enormous strength.

And that’s where a lot of guys using get sort of irritated.

There are LOTS of guys using similar stacks to what Ryan listed, and will never ever be as strong as him, or anywhere close. And that’s where the argument of “steroids don’t do the work” come into play. All the drugs in the world won’t turn anyone into a 700 raw bencher if mom and dad didn’t give them all the things they needed in order to achieve that.

I know you understand this, but the article more or less paints a picture of a guy that simply took more drugs to get where he was, and as I’ve stated before my guess is Ryan would out bench most everyone else by a wide margin if drugs never existed. In other words, even if you took all of the drugs away MOST of the same guys would probably still be at the top. Sure, it would cancel out some guys, but the NFL isn’t filled with awesome athletes because of drugs. It’s filled with awesome athletes because of genetics and personal interest in a sport by the individual.

I don’t think strength sports would be much different. If you removed all the drugs, genetics and personal interest in strength sports would still probably produce the same world record holders that you see now because they were “made” to be world record holders.

Steroids are powerful, and without a doubt will make some better than what they would be if they didn’t take them, however they won’t turn you into a world beater if all of the other variables don’t co-exist along with them.

In closing, I do agree that there’s no reason for a guy that is using to look down on a guy that is natural, and there’s no reason for the natural guy to scream out that the drug user is only where he is because of some injections and orals. Every guy is going to decide what path he takes on his strength journey and be responsible for the choices he makes. As lifters we should simply respect each guys person choice one way or the other, and no look down on someone for using or not using.

[quote]jp_dubya wrote:

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]MattyXL wrote:
I haven’t heard
Of this phenomenon of lifters on gear calling Natty’s weak…I think the glute god made this interaction up to make up for his lifting inadequacies[/quote]
To be fair, I’m sure there are a lot of geared guys calling him weak… Because he is lol. Tons of natty guys would call him weak too.

400 squat and 300 bench in that comp? Not strong numbers lol[/quote]
For him they may be. He seems pretty tall with long limbs. [/quote]

No he is just weak. Those are piss poor numbers. Especially for someone trying to act like he is strong as shit

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]jp_dubya wrote:

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]MattyXL wrote:
I haven’t heard
Of this phenomenon of lifters on gear calling Natty’s weak…I think the glute god made this interaction up to make up for his lifting inadequacies[/quote]
To be fair, I’m sure there are a lot of geared guys calling him weak… Because he is lol. Tons of natty guys would call him weak too.

400 squat and 300 bench in that comp? Not strong numbers lol[/quote]
For him they may be. He seems pretty tall with long limbs. [/quote]

No he is just weak. Those are piss poor numbers. Especially for someone trying to act like he is strong as shit[/quote]
You’re missing my point. If those are PRs for him, he is doing something right by him. If I put on 20lbs of lean mass, my approach is not wrong because it differs than someone who put on 40.

[quote]jp_dubya wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]jp_dubya wrote:

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]MattyXL wrote:
I haven’t heard
Of this phenomenon of lifters on gear calling Natty’s weak…I think the glute god made this interaction up to make up for his lifting inadequacies[/quote]
To be fair, I’m sure there are a lot of geared guys calling him weak… Because he is lol. Tons of natty guys would call him weak too.

400 squat and 300 bench in that comp? Not strong numbers lol[/quote]
For him they may be. He seems pretty tall with long limbs. [/quote]

No he is just weak. Those are piss poor numbers. Especially for someone trying to act like he is strong as shit[/quote]
You’re missing my point. If those are PRs for him, he is doing something right by him. If I put on 20lbs of lean mass, my approach is not wrong because it differs than someone who put on 40.
[/quote]

My point is don’t whine about being called weak when you are and you’re asking for it when you try and claim being a strong person. Or that AAS is the only way to get jacked and strong. Plenty of natties are both larger and leaner and stronger than him and many accomplish this well younger than him. I’d have no beef with him if we wasn’t trying to make these idiotic claims as well as lacking a fundamental knowledge of PEDs

[quote]MattyXL wrote:
Paul Carter:
I don’t think it’s cool for anyone to look down on another lifter who is natural if he is enhanced.

Hell, I will take that one step further. I don’t think we as lifters should be looking down on each other at all, thought it does happen at times, and even I have been guilty of this.[/quote]
LOL

Paul Carter has been like, the MOST guilty of this. I’m glad to see he’s, ostensibly, turned over a new leaf or whatever. I agree with most of what he said in that post, but I found this bit kinda funny and ironic given who it’s coming from.

Honestly, from the shit I’ve read and seen from Contreras he seems a little delusional and off. There’s definitely some deep seeded issues goin’ on there.