Conspiracy Theories

[quote]koffea wrote:
conspiracy by definition is a secret plan to carry out an illegal or harmful act.

what happened in germany was anything but secret and was made legal by the people in germany.

[/quote]

But this is too simple.

Who cares about secret plans…? Sure they happen too but come on, for the sake of an actual interesting discussion can we entertain the idea of a broader definition…?

I promise it could become interesting.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
koffea wrote:
conspiracy by definition is a secret plan to carry out an illegal or harmful act.

what happened in germany was anything but secret and was made legal by the people in germany.

But this is too simple.

Who cares about secret plans…? Sure they happen too but come on, for the sake of an actual interesting discussion can we entertain the idea of a broader definition…?

I promise it could become interesting.[/quote]

Let’s try this once more. The idea behind the thread is that super-secret all-encompassing eeeeevil conspiracies pretty much don’t happen. Sinister broad mass movements can, but they are a different kettle of fish entirely. I think this confounds the meanings of conspire, viz.,

  1. To plan together secretly to commit an illegal or wrongful act or accomplish a legal purpose through illegal action.

  2. To join or act together; combine: “Semisweet chocolate, cocoa powder, espresso, Cognac, and vanilla all conspire to intensify [the cake’s] flavor” (Sally Schneider).

I’m talking about #1, you want to broaden it to #2 (def. is at Conspire - definition of conspire by The Free Dictionary) which has no necessarily bad connotation, indeed, it can even be jovial. The first never is.

Pretty much all the worst theories in vogue now, 9-11, JFK, fake moon landing, male patriarchy, etc., etc. are predicated on the same type of argument. I would like to find one conspiracy in the history of mankind that is of the same sort as these. What’s worse, is that the dunder-headed thinking that goes into these is now getting taught in public schools. The guy with a 12 pack of beer sitting in his trailer who decides his problems are all caused by the CIA is laughable. A generation that honestly can’t evaluate an argument without resort to paranoia or baroque flights of fantasy is terrifying. They will inherit the Earth in a few years, like it or not.

– jj

“Few people have the imagination for reality.”
– Johann Wolfgang von Goethe. (1749 - 1832)

[quote]jj-dude wrote:
Let’s try this once more. The idea behind the thread is that super-secret all-encompassing eeeeevil conspiracies pretty much don’t happen.[/quote]

This has already been beaten to death.

To think that sinister plans do not ever happen is also naive. Since there is no hard evidence to them it pretty much just equates to waxing poetic about theories that none can test.

However, we can discuss the consequence of ideas – and that evidence is all around us in plain sight.

The events of 9-11 could be considered the result of the conspiracy of the US government’s failed foreign policy and national defense over the last 100 years…and since the CIA does operate in secrecy, voila…it’s a conspiracy!!

And as I already said, it is way more interesting than the comic book BS we constantly have to hear about.

I read an article not long ago which discussed why there are so many conspiracy theories popping up. Obviously the Internet plays a huge role. You are anonymous and regardless of age or general background your opinion seems to count. The article also stated that those with a lower IQ are more inclined to buy into conspiracy theories.

It goes something like this, “I can’t get ahead financially (or perhaps in other ways)and it can’t be my fault”. Therefore, the people (corporations, governments etc.) who are in control or have more power are somehow manipulating all of through various nefarious means. This extends to governments, local, state and federal. “They are all rich and corrupt” cries the poor honest tread upon low IQ’r. When this happens anything is possible in the mind of the believer.

It was an interesting article, if I can remember the writer I will post it, it was a few years ago.

[quote]koffea wrote:
conspiracy by definition is a secret plan to carry out an illegal or harmful act.

what happened in germany was anything but secret and was made legal by the people in germany.

[/quote]

“In the early 1930s financial assistance to Hitler began to flow more readily. There took place in Germany a series of meetings, irrefutably documented in several sources, between German industrialists, Hitler himself, and more often Hitler’s representatives Hjalmar Sehaeht and Rudolf Hess. The critical point is that the German industrialists financing Hitler were predominantly directors of cartels with American associations, ownership, participation, or some form of subsidiary connection. The Hitler backers were not, by and large, firms of purely German origin, or representative of German family business. Except for Thyssen and Kirdoff, in most cases they were the German multi-national firms â?? i.e., I.G. Farben, A.E.G., DAPAG, etc. These multi-nationals had been built up by American loans in the 1920s, and in the early 1930s had American directors and heavy American financial participation.”

America built Hitler. I’d call that a conspiracy…taking over a country.

But then Hitler fired Schacht and started printing his own money!! He by-passed his own version of the ‘federal reserve’ because he didn’t want Germany to be trapped in debt. Then one thing led to another…

[quote]ZEB wrote:
I read an article not long ago which discussed why there are so many conspiracy theories popping up. Obviously the Internet plays a huge role. You are anonymous and regardless of age or general background your opinion seems to count. The article also stated that those with a lower IQ are more inclined to buy into conspiracy theories.

It goes something like this, “I can’t get ahead financially (or perhaps in other ways)and it can’t be my fault”. Therefore, the people (corporations, governments etc.) who are in control or have more power are somehow manipulating all of through various nefarious means. This extends to governments, local, state and federal. “They are all rich and corrupt” cries the poor honest tread upon low IQ’r. When this happens anything is possible in the mind of the believer.

It was an interesting article, if I can remember the writer I will post it, it was a few years ago.[/quote]

You sure it wasn’t an anonymous internet article? That would be really cool if it was.

V

[quote]Vegita wrote:
ZEB wrote:
I read an article not long ago which discussed why there are so many conspiracy theories popping up. Obviously the Internet plays a huge role. You are anonymous and regardless of age or general background your opinion seems to count. The article also stated that those with a lower IQ are more inclined to buy into conspiracy theories.

It goes something like this, “I can’t get ahead financially (or perhaps in other ways)and it can’t be my fault”. Therefore, the people (corporations, governments etc.) who are in control or have more power are somehow manipulating all of through various nefarious means. This extends to governments, local, state and federal. “They are all rich and corrupt” cries the poor honest tread upon low IQ’r. When this happens anything is possible in the mind of the believer.

It was an interesting article, if I can remember the writer I will post it, it was a few years ago.

You sure it wasn’t an anonymous internet article? That would be really cool if it was.

V[/quote]

LOL

Pretty interesting…although I’m sure since it wasn’t on CNN or Fox News some people will dismiss it out of hand…

…was the Iran-Contra scandal a conspiracy?

I have never been one for conspiracy theories. I tend to follow Occam’s razor. As I get older, however, I am forced to recognize our gov has carried out some screwed up stuff. One of the worse perhaps being the manufactured Gulf of Tonkin Incident. Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but has it not been confirmed many times over by those in Gov and unclassified documents?

When I first heard those that dared call the 9/11 tragedy an inside job, it would infuriate and sicken me. The scale of evil required for such a thing is beyond my comprehension. I read up on the event in order to refute those that claimed it was an inside job. I came away still believing, but with some big questions. The biggest of which pertains to building 7. I have a very hard time accepting the stated cause of it’s collapse. Pancaking obviously does not apply here. Fire alone cannot cause this. Damage from falling debris would not cause the total collapse as witnessed on film.

I guess more than anything I am asking for sources of support as to how this could happen. I have several years of high rise construction background and am familiar with the various forms of construction.
Well, enough said I guess.

[quote]JEATON wrote:

When I first heard those that dared call the 9/11 tragedy an inside job, it would infuriate and sicken me. The scale of evil required for such a thing is beyond my comprehension. [/quote]

See, this is what I don’t get. When people get pissed at the fact that you are questioning the official story, throwing out terms like “respect for the victim’s families”, “unpatriotic”, etcetera, especially when trying to search for the truth about what really happened is a better definition of those terms than exhibited by those who get their red, white and blue panties is a bunch over the thought. You see this a lot in the conservative media. It’s almost as if they’re trying to scare people into not speaking up…

Btw I don’t mean any disrespect to you JEATON, as you’ve actually looked into what happened.

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…was the Iran-Contra scandal a conspiracy?[/quote]

No. Republicans did that, so there no conspiracy.

[quote]JEATON wrote:
I have never been one for conspiracy theories. I tend to follow Occam’s razor. As I get older, however, I am forced to recognize our gov has carried out some screwed up stuff. One of the worse perhaps being the manufactured Gulf of Tonkin Incident. Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but has it not been confirmed many times over by those in Gov and unclassified documents?

When I first heard those that dared call the 9/11 tragedy an inside job, it would infuriate and sicken me. The scale of evil required for such a thing is beyond my comprehension. I read up on the event in order to refute those that claimed it was an inside job. I came away still believing, but with some big questions. The biggest of which pertains to building 7. I have a very hard time accepting the stated cause of it’s collapse. Pancaking obviously does not apply here. Fire alone cannot cause this. Damage from falling debris would not cause the total collapse as witnessed on film.

I guess more than anything I am asking for sources of support as to how this could happen. I have several years of high rise construction background and am familiar with the various forms of construction.
Well, enough said I guess.[/quote]

No firefighting on a building that has been burning for hours tends to have some negative side effects.

[quote]JEATON wrote:
I have never been one for conspiracy theories. I tend to follow Occam’s razor. As I get older, however, I am forced to recognize our gov has carried out some screwed up stuff. One of the worse perhaps being the manufactured Gulf of Tonkin Incident. Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but has it not been confirmed many times over by those in Gov and unclassified documents?

When I first heard those that dared call the 9/11 tragedy an inside job, it would infuriate and sicken me. The scale of evil required for such a thing is beyond my comprehension. I read up on the event in order to refute those that claimed it was an inside job.

I came away still believing, but with some big questions. The biggest of which pertains to building 7. I have a very hard time accepting the stated cause of it’s collapse. Pancaking obviously does not apply here. Fire alone cannot cause this. Damage from falling debris would not cause the total collapse as witnessed on film.

I guess more than anything I am asking for sources of support as to how this could happen. I have several years of high rise construction background and am familiar with the various forms of construction.
Well, enough said I guess.[/quote]

Go to the NIST site.

[quote]Makavali wrote:
JEATON wrote:
I have never been one for conspiracy theories. I tend to follow Occam’s razor. As I get older, however, I am forced to recognize our gov has carried out some screwed up stuff. One of the worse perhaps being the manufactured Gulf of Tonkin Incident. Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but has it not been confirmed many times over by those in Gov and unclassified documents?

When I first heard those that dared call the 9/11 tragedy an inside job, it would infuriate and sicken me. The scale of evil required for such a thing is beyond my comprehension. I read up on the event in order to refute those that claimed it was an inside job. I came away still believing, but with some big questions. The biggest of which pertains to building 7. I have a very hard time accepting the stated cause of it’s collapse. Pancaking obviously does not apply here. Fire alone cannot cause this. Damage from falling debris would not cause the total collapse as witnessed on film.

I guess more than anything I am asking for sources of support as to how this could happen. I have several years of high rise construction background and am familiar with the various forms of construction.
Well, enough said I guess.

No firefighting on a building that has been burning for hours tends to have some negative side effects.[/quote]

Negative effects do not equal total uniform collapse. Nobody is saying that here we have a building who is just minding it’s own business and poof it collapses. We are questioning the level of damage and the totality and speed of the demise of the building. The NIST answers are not sufficient, they have changed thier story several times and have yet to answer the last round of questions brought about by thier peers, not internet conspiracy folks. Please visit AE911truth.org for more information.

V

http://www.metroactive.com/metro/09.09.09/cover-0936.html

Recent article done on ae911truth. Good compelling info.

V

[quote]pat wrote:
I hate conspiracy theories.[/quote]

You hate conspiracy theories, Fair enough.I hate it when people beleive everything they see on the news and read in the paper just assuming that it the truth and the government wouldnt lie to the american people.

I beleive alot of these so called theories have alot of ground and seem very likely to be the the truth.

Ugh, no. the conspiracy guys have an agenda very similar to mainstream media. Money.

[quote]Vegita wrote:
The NIST answers are not sufficient, they have changed thier story several times and have yet to answer the last round of questions brought about by thier peers, not internet conspiracy folks. Please visit AE911truth.org for more information.

V[/quote]

Failbot.

AE911truth is a pretty shit job of getting people together. A whole heap of those clowns are:

  • Not CIVIL Engineers
  • Ex-Architects who have expired licenses
  • Wannabe Architects who don’t have a license to practice
  • Fake, as the escapades of a certain Mike Rotch would indicate.

[quote]Makavali wrote:
Vegita wrote:
The NIST answers are not sufficient, they have changed thier story several times and have yet to answer the last round of questions brought about by thier peers, not internet conspiracy folks. Please visit AE911truth.org for more information.

V

Failbot.

AE911truth is a pretty shit job of getting people together. A whole heap of those clowns are:

  • Not CIVIL Engineers
  • Ex-Architects who have expired licenses
  • Wannabe Architects who don’t have a license to practice
  • Fake, as the escapades of a certain Mike Rotch would indicate.[/quote]

Wow thats so very informative of you sir. I especially like how you provided so much evidence to support your theory. Specifically how many are fake? and what are your sources.

Also does one letting thier license expire also let thier knowledge of the things which got them the license in the first place expire with it? I mean I am an insurance agent with a license. it will expire every two years if I don’t take the “continuing ed” which is a guy who leaves the answer sheet on a test that is too easy anyways and we call it a day. So if I let my license expire am I suddenly joe public when it comes to insurance? Explain to me how this process works, does a magic fairy come in and hit me in the head with a magic wand, sucking all the insurance knowledge right out of my head? I am really intrigued.

Oh, Oh wait… I know where you got this information from. Wait, yea this is your friend again right? The metalworking engineer or something? Yea he probably told you these guys were fake and you just sort of said, HEY YOU’RE THE EXPERT, and then went back to talking about which ugly girl across the bar you were going to nail that night.

Ok so I’m making a bit of fun here, but seriously, failbot? What are you fucking 10? back up your shit or don’t post.

V