T Nation

Considering TRT because of PCT's Side Effects & Plans in the Near Future

Hey guys,

If you’d like to know a little more about my AAS and PCT history, there’s a topic: Log: My PCT History, PCT After 3rd Cycle. 4.5 Months, Test/Tren/T3

In short, I’m 25, pharmacy student. I lift seriously for 2 years, interested in ambitious amateur sports since 15 y.o. Have done 3 successfull AAS cycles with great results (in total, 10 months of bulk + 8 months of shredding, +15 kg of LBM, +48% of AVG 1RM in main lifts). Won some cycling races years ago. Love to train smart and eat smart for more than 10 years.

There’s one thing limiting me the most, and it’s T level fluctuation. Have no problem with E2 changes during cycle and PCT phases, but fluctuating T between those phases + shredding in OFF way where leptin influences T level so badly aren’t so enjoyable (I feel comfortable with my physique only with single %BF and want to keep it, low T doesn’t allow me to do that). PCT on Clomid and Clom’s mental sides make me sick for at least a month (and I can’t affort that anymore cus of my specific lifestyle - can’t focus on studying), Nolva seems to be too weak for me, can’t get another SERMs in my country. My PCTs end with success, but they’re totally inpractical and harsh, risky as well if we consider conducting another cycles.

Being clean seems not enough for me, my education and experience allow me to get more and after those 3 cycles I definitely want more (despite costs and sides I had and will have to deal with). Want to work in pharmacy field so I will probably have contact with medicines in the profession.

My PROS of PCT: making T “for free”; can leave AAS and lifting and T will be produced endogenously; no need to inject anything at least E3D for the rest of your life; no need to control all symptoms of E2 being up or down (+ no need to do blood-work if everything is fine).
My CONS of PCT: you are not 100% sure if you can run HPTA after each other AAS cycle; each PCT means harsh sides from SERM which force me to “leave my life” for at least 1 month; being OFF means being dependent on your physiology (being sick/depressed, etc.) and another hormones like leptin which influence your T level (can’t diet as you wish, can’t maintain low %BF as you wish, restoring T after dieting takes too long);

My PROS of TRT: stable T level in the upper range = stable libido, strength and energy independently of environment (in theory of course), so can realize my sports goals and no need to suffer from PCT’s sides after each AAS cycle; no need to be scared of low T after each PCT conducted; can manipulate the level of E2 depending on current training target & it won’t affect blocked HPTA.
My CONS of TRT: being dependent on drugs till the rest of my life (I would TRT after 40 y.o. anyway basing on current medical evidence), which means to deal with E2 fluctuations (blood-work, mental focus on that stuff) and higher cardiovascular diseases & cancer risk if T too high; costs.

Actually, costs aren’t too big in my country, 1 month of TRT (at least 200 mg of TE, 700 UI of hCG and 1 mg of Anastrozole weekly) is about 25$ + let’s say 2 blood-works (E2 TT) per month 15$ = 40$ w/o prescription.

Currently, I’m focused on my PCT and want to finish that with success. I would just like to hear about pros and cons of TRT/PCT from you, basing on my thoughts and your experience. Thank you.

What about the sterilization of TRT? I didnt see you mention HCG.

Have you ever gotten an ECG post tren or post cycle to determine cardiac function (just curious)

I did, fertility remains with me.

ECG was done about 1 month after tren ace cessation, everything fine.

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Does medical evidence currently have anything suggesting TRT for elderly men is beneficial? When I look through medical literature (currently based in Aus), doses are very low, say 250mg with ridiculous injection intervals like 1 shot every 3 weeks or androgel and generally one has to have a damn near castrate level of testosterone to get put on trt here (I managed to get on). If an elderly man has normal testosterone levels will TRT benefit him, maybe the added muscle mass from a boost in testosterone could decrease rates of hip fracture or injury related mortality? Is there any medical literature on trt with doses of say 150-250mg weekly? As to high t causing cancer, I’m not so sure about that, recent literature has been conflicting as to whether AAS increase the risk of prostate cancer, maybe in elderly men who are more sensitive to DHT. I do believe that high doses of AAS over time may cause hypertrophic cardiomyopathy, with the extent of heart damage being related to genetic factors and predispositions. As a pharmacy student, what is your opinion on supraphysiologic doses of AAS and heart health, do you believe there is a relatively “safe” way to cycle? And in your opinion what constitutes as supraphysiologic, anything over 1300ng/dl or say anything three times the upper limit of normal?

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From my experience and simple math: 180 mg of TE, 850 UI of hCG and around 0.25 of AI weekly would keep my TT in the upper range/a little over the range with E2 around 80-100 pmol/l.
Amount of that TE would cost me funny 7$, hCG 10$ and AI doesn’t even matter (1 mg/month, my %BF is low + I’m overresponder to that stuff) = ~17$ from UG (have v. good source). Most of our forums members spend more on supplements that don’t work/haven’t any of those described active ingredients.

All endos I know in my city (2nd biggest in my country) are idiots about ASIH, TRT procedure and doses are a mistake, I won’t even bother to find a specialist (I’m a one lmao, but can’t write a prescription even after becoming a master of pharmacy).

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It’s beneficial basing on male’s physiology. We’re just not perfectly adapted to survive more than let’s say 40 years reffering to evolution, so all the old age-related diseases with endocrynology disturbances.

As you mentioned, most countries assume ridiculous TRT protocols, along with therapies to restore fertility. Studies are mainly based on these procedures, so the results.

Simplicity is what I like the most about the topic:

  • there are unquestionable advantages of T being in the upper of the range/slight over the range, and muscularity here is the least important,
  • there are unquestionable risks of T being in that zone if your lifestyle and genetics suck > cardiovascular diseases (thickening of blood vessels and cardiac muscle patologies) and DHT related cancer risks are associated with that level of T obviously,
  • it’s questionable what T and E2 levels are recommended in particular person (basing on his family history, current diseases, lifestyle),
  • summarizing, if you live your life reasonably and compensate your heavy but short AAS cycles with few months of break from that stuff, you don’t absorb too many toxins into your body, manage stress properly, do cardio > the risk of cardiovascular system/prostate diseases & having a cancer will be then only dependent on your genetics and unfavorable statistics (sadly).

Needless to add that long supraphysiological AAS induced T level means HCT, kidneys, CV system and liver problems sooner or later (CNS and libido would be affected as well, but it’s questionable and more research is needed).

IMO T in the upper range/slightly more is safe and beneficial enough. You can cycle potent AAS (limiting androgenicity as much as you can) when your health markers are 100% impeccable for as short periods as you can.

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My TT prior to my bout of literal testicular failure was 1052ng/dl, my health markers are relatively impeccable with the exception of hematocrit being at 50 percent (naturally, that being said I am able to draw blood whenever.) Trt in Aus hasn’t been able to get me above 500ng/dl (levels prior to trt were mid 200s for a prolonged period of time), my nadirs are around 100ng/dl, I’ve got my own test however I can’t start topping up until the doc stops wanting bloods every two weeks or so. Also probably going to try nandrolone phenylpropionate (or decanoate, depends on how frequently I feel like pinning) for a short period of time due to anecdotal reports of it helping ease joint pain. I was on an 1mg of ADEX daily to combat premature closure of growth plates when I was younger and it really did a number on my joints. I’m going to push myself back up to the top of the range like I used to be. Good luck with the pharmacy degree and thanks for the detailed answer I appreciate it

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