T Nation

Considering Getting Off TRT


#1

after recently being prescribed a little over two months of gel

and it went from about 170 to a bit over 300

i guess it's good that it raised but I don't feel much better and overall I sort of just want to stop taking it and wait for specailist because frankly my doctor sucks and didn't do any of the right bloodwork, said E2 wasn't necessary, basically is ignoring questions I have now.

I just replaced natural low t with gel low t. doesn't seem worth it.

questions

How long until natural production gets back to it's normal shitty level? (note that I masturbated within two hours or so from those tests so I'm hoping that doesn't lower them too much)

Is there a chance to develop gyno or something if I stop after two months or so?


#2

[quote]Funkygodzilla wrote:
after recently being prescribed a little over two months of gel

and it went from about 170 to a bit over 300

i guess it’s good that it raised but I don’t feel much better and overall I sort of just want to stop taking it and wait for specailist because frankly my doctor sucks and didn’t do any of the right bloodwork, said E2 wasn’t necessary, basically is ignoring questions I have now.

I just replaced natural low t with gel low t. doesn’t seem worth it.

questions

How long until natural production gets back to it’s normal shitty level? (note that I masturbated within two hours or so from those tests so I’m hoping that doesn’t lower them too much)

Is there a chance to develop gyno or something if I stop after two months or so?

[/quote]

Heads up!
Don’t give up so fast bro.

I had exactly the same thing with gel. I didn’t absorp the gel well, i was feeling it wasn’t working and labs confirmed as much. Switched to injections. Working so far.

No wonder you don’t feel better because that value is just hitting the low end of the scale. You need to get labs done somehow, and switch doctors and to injections. If you’re suffering from hypogonadism you really need to treat it properly. Not treating it is alot worse and can get you to more earlier grave. If you want to feel like un-energetic and depressed fellow then go ahead.

You don’t have to worry about gyno after 2 months of gel bro, don’t worry.
It would require pretty extreme case and would be very unlikely in practice.

Unless you’re seriously overweight i don’t think estrogens in general are any kind of problem for you.

All the best!


#3

Your thyroid function is low and inability to absorb transdermal T is typical. Did you note the first paragraph in the advice for new guys sticky like I asked you to do? Also read the thyroid basics sticky and check oral body temperatures as stated and consider your iodized salt use and possible iodine deficiency.


#4

I’m not sure if not being able to absorb it well is the case because it DID raise almost 2x the levels.

I had my thyroid checked aswell and nothing was too off about it apparently. had it checked twice.

As for iodized salts I use salt what i would consider pretty “normally” I put salt and pepper on my potatoes, other then that no i’m not necessarily “salting” much of my food though, considering alot of stuff now has so much sodium in it.

My temperature has always been a bit lower for as long as I can remember, same with my mom.

My eyebrows are thin and very shapely looking but not necessarily thin on the outside. also get shapely eyebrows from my parents, neither have very thick or prominent brows

I store most of my fat I would say in my belly, I guess a bit in my upper legs. I’m not very chunky but have a bit of looseness in my belly with faint ab lines when standing/flexing (very bottom ab crease covered in a bit of fat)

I’m just so frustrated with my doctor at this point I did half the does (only 50mg starter androgels BTW so i didn’t expect any kind of ridiculous boost)
for the last three days and if i DO get back on/stay on TrT it’s going to be with a different doctor, I have an appointment set up next month and I even got a number from a dude from work that knows someone decent who prescribes the shots and atleast does all the proper bloodwork

My doctor is legit negligent at this point. I sent him a message and he didn’t respond (regarding treatment) sent ANOTHER inquiring about the first message, got a message back from an assistant saying he should message back “early next week” with two . . at the end, whatever that means. well it’s Thursday now and no message back. about to give him a big FU in a message, i’m finding another doctor anyway.


#5

also should be noted that I had a testi removed a few years ago duo to a “torsion” or something of the sorts. I was told it should not effect T but apparently it is or something else is at play here.


#6

300 is considered to be a good reason to do TRT. TT=800-1000 is typically needed.

Do you have thyroid labs to post? You seem to be willing to ignore the problem. You may be iodine deficient and taking more iodine might improve things. Note that you need identifiable source of selenium, available in many multi-vits. Find a b-complex product that also has trace elements including iodine and selenium. Men should avoid supplements listing iron.


#7

2013
Testosterone 220 - 1000 ng/dL 300
Testosterone Free % 0.5 - 3.2 % 3.4 H
Testosterone Free 40 - 240 pg/mL 102.3

6/3/2015
Testosterone 220 - 1000 ng/dL 176 L
Testosterone Free % 0.5 - 3.2 % 2.8
Testosterone Free 40 - 240 pg/mL 50.0

“Lipid basics” 6-3-2015
Triglyceride 30 - 149 mg/dL 60
Cholesterol 100 - 199 mg/dL 137
HDL Cholesterol >45 mg/dL 56
VLDL Cholesterol 6 - 40 mg/dL 12
LDL Cholesterol 60 - 129 mg/dL 69
Fasting Time Unknown
TC:HDL Ratio 1.00 - 5.00 2.45
LDL:HDL Ratio 0.50 - 3.55 1.23
Non HDL Cholesterol 90 - 159 mg/dL 81 L

6-18-2015
TSH 0.400 - 5.500 uU/mL 2.390

7-22-2015 (on gel)
Testosterone 220 - 1000 ng/dL 306

prolact 7-22-2015
Prolactin 2.0 - 14.0 ng/mL 8.7

7-22-2015 (told this test was basically useless)
Estrogen Total 60 - 190 pg/mL 89.8


#8

[quote]Funkygodzilla wrote:

How long until natural production gets back to it’s ABNORMAL AND shitty level?

[/quote]

Fixed that for you.

With gels, your ridiculously low level will return in a few days. When I came off T cyp for two weeks, my level plummeted to 113 if I recall correctly.


#9

[quote]Funkygodzilla wrote:
I’m not sure if not being able to absorb it well is the case because it DID raise almost 2x the levels.

I had my thyroid checked aswell and nothing was too off about it apparently. had it checked twice.

As for iodized salts I use salt what i would consider pretty “normally” I put salt and pepper on my potatoes, other then that no i’m not necessarily “salting” much of my food though, considering alot of stuff now has so much sodium in it.

My temperature has always been a bit lower for as long as I can remember, same with my mom.

My eyebrows are thin and very shapely looking but not necessarily thin on the outside. also get shapely eyebrows from my parents, neither have very thick or prominent brows

I store most of my fat I would say in my belly, I guess a bit in my upper legs. I’m not very chunky but have a bit of looseness in my belly with faint ab lines when standing/flexing (very bottom ab crease covered in a bit of fat)

I’m just so frustrated with my doctor at this point I did half the does (only 50mg starter androgels BTW so i didn’t expect any kind of ridiculous boost)
for the last three days and if i DO get back on/stay on TrT it’s going to be with a different doctor, I have an appointment set up next month and I even got a number from a dude from work that knows someone decent who prescribes the shots and atleast does all the proper bloodwork

My doctor is legit negligent at this point. I sent him a message and he didn’t respond (regarding treatment) sent ANOTHER inquiring about the first message, got a message back from an assistant saying he should message back “early next week” with two . . at the end, whatever that means. well it’s Thursday now and no message back. about to give him a big FU in a message, i’m finding another doctor anyway.
[/quote]

Having worked in healthcare for over a decade and two doctors ignore me when I was hypogonadal and untreated before TRT, I can confidently say that some docs are glorified bums or are so egotistical that they don’t know when to say, “I don’t know,” give up on a case, and tell the patient to see someone competent in the issue at hand! Even an endocrinologist sent me to my andro-urologist because he felt someone else can deal with the job better.

Go to a doc who knows what he is doing with TRT and fertility. Apparently gels are not your thing, and they’re not for everybody. You’ll likely do better with injections.


#10

thanks for the replies. yea that’s probably the way to go. i’m just nervous about being on medication for the rest of my life I guess. I read that being on trt increases heart attack risk by about 2X, is this overblown? what is the real truth about prolonged usage of trt?


#11

just a bit more information sorry for double post.

2012
Testosterone 220 - 1000 ng/dL 364

TSH 0.400 - 5.500 uU/mL 1.140

these tests were done roughly 4 months after testicle surgery to remove testicle.

I’m wondering why free test in the second test was marked high? is it significantly high? can this indicate something such as adrenal fatigue or something or am I just dreaming and in denial that removing a testicle messed up my body essentially?


#12

[quote]Funkygodzilla wrote:
thanks for the replies. yea that’s probably the way to go. i’m just nervous about being on medication for the rest of my life I guess. [/quote]

There’s not much to be nervous about, and the quality and length of your life will be compromised if you don’t get on TRT.

[quote]
I read that being on trt increases heart attack risk by about 2X, is this overblown? [/quote]
Where? Who wrote this? Actually your risk of cardiovascular disease and diabetes–and whatever other co-morbidities come along with those conditions–will increase if you have untreated hypogonadism.

[quote]what is the real truth about prolonged usage of trt?[/quote] That’s it’s medication for a health condition.


#13

[quote]Funkygodzilla wrote:
just a bit more information sorry for double post.

2012
Testosterone 220 - 1000 ng/dL 364

TSH 0.400 - 5.500 uU/mL 1.140

these tests were done roughly 4 months after testicle surgery to remove testicle.

I’m wondering why free test in the second test was marked high? is it significantly high? can this indicate something such as adrenal fatigue or something or am I just dreaming and in denial that removing a testicle messed up my body essentially?
[/quote]

I don’t see how removing a testicle could not hamper T production considering it is the testicles that secrete T.


#14

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

[quote]Funkygodzilla wrote:
just a bit more information sorry for double post.

2012
Testosterone 220 - 1000 ng/dL 364

TSH 0.400 - 5.500 uU/mL 1.140

these tests were done roughly 4 months after testicle surgery to remove testicle.

I’m wondering why free test in the second test was marked high? is it significantly high? can this indicate something such as adrenal fatigue or something or am I just dreaming and in denial that removing a testicle messed up my body essentially?
[/quote]

I don’t see how removing a testicle could not hamper T production considering it is the testicles that secrete T.
[/quote]

Normally the HPTA compensates by signaling the remaining testicle to increase production so that T levels are not reduced. From http://www.laparoboticsurgery.com/resource-pages-for-links/effects-of-losing-a-testicle/


#15

[quote]seekonk wrote:

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

[quote]Funkygodzilla wrote:
just a bit more information sorry for double post.

2012
Testosterone 220 - 1000 ng/dL 364

TSH 0.400 - 5.500 uU/mL 1.140

these tests were done roughly 4 months after testicle surgery to remove testicle.

I’m wondering why free test in the second test was marked high? is it significantly high? can this indicate something such as adrenal fatigue or something or am I just dreaming and in denial that removing a testicle messed up my body essentially?
[/quote]

I don’t see how removing a testicle could not hamper T production considering it is the testicles that secrete T.
[/quote]

Normally the HPTA compensates by signaling the remaining testicle to increase production so that T levels are not reduced. From http://www.laparoboticsurgery.com/resource-pages-for-links/effects-of-losing-a-testicle/

[/quote]

Thanks for this. I did not know that.


#16

[quote]BrickHead wrote:
Where? Who wrote this? Actually your risk of cardiovascular disease and diabetes–and whatever other co-morbidities come along with those conditions–will increase if you have untreated hypogonadism.[/quote]

I think the correct statement is that CVD is associated with low T, but that is not necessarily a causative relationship. (For example, it may be CVD that causes low T, not the other way around, or it may be a third metabolic condition or lifestyle factor(s) that causes both CVD and low T.)

It hasn’t been proved (yet) that treating low T reduces CVD, aside from some small and as yet inconclusive studies on biomarkers. A couple of years ago a study came out that claimed TRT increased CVD in elderly men with risk factors for CVD. OTOH, a recent, larger study came out claiming that TRT at least doesn’t increase CVD on average in the study population and might improve it, which is more promising. Overall, the jury is still out and more studies are needed.

It is important to realize that there is one situation in which TRT can definitely increase CVD, namely if hematocrit and red blood cell count are allowed to get too high (which can happen in some TRT patients), so this is something that should be monitored in a proper TRT regimen.


#17

Ok well thanks for the positive replies. Notice how over the years my T levels go lower and lower. I guess thinking it was a fluke test or I can raise T levels substantially by naturally means is incredibly wishful thinking.

I took the normal amount again, and actually did another half packet for the last 2 days (I don’t see any harm in this since one packet a day got me to a measly 300 or so). I’m seeing a endo on tuesday, if he doesn’t help me, do more complete bloodwork prescribe a bit higher dosage then I have a number in my phone from a buddy at work who’s dad is on TRT and has a doctor that does all the bloodwork and prescribes shots.


#18

Got prescribed testcypionate (depo-test) 200 ml/ml .25 ml
twice weekly monday and thursday

Seem about right?


#19

Sorry for double post, the doctor was great from what i could tell, he looked at the little sheet I brought and recognized and discussed all the bloodwork with me that I wrote down, mentioned a HcG (not doing that right now) also mentioned clomid, in general seemed knowledgable, having a few more tests done aswell.

I have confidence as of now.