T Nation

Considering Adding Dbol 3 Weeks into Test E Cycle


#1

'm thinking of running it for 2 weeks to augment the Test E I started 3 weeks ago. Adding it because my cycle may be cut short.

Opinions? Should I dose it higher than 15-20 mg?

I'm just trying to get as much bang for my buck over this cycle. SOmething came up that has made me want to shorten my cycle to as little as 5 weeks, unfortunately.

I'm aware of the drug's profile of losing gains and water retention...I want to avoid water retention as much as possible. Would Nolva be enough to combat this significantly? I know it's supposed to help.

I'm sure many of you would just PCT and start over, but I'm thinking I may want to do this short cycle since I'm impatient and an instant gratification kind of guy ;>)


#2

I think you need more research.

15-20mg is a little less than a standard dose.

Nolva isn't used to control water retention.

No point in using Dbol if you're worried about water retention.

You will lose most of the gains from Dbol, but this is why we use it in conjunction with Test. Your strength will be through the roof.

There are other oral options if you don't want the bloat.

Again, you need more research.


#3

Nolvadex will not do anythign for water retention. I don't know where you know that from.

Dbol is the wrong drug to use if you want to avoid water retention. Even with an AI there will be some water retention.

15-20mg is not a 'best bang for buck' dose. 30mg is the minimum I'd recommend. I also like 30 because it can be split up nicely throughout the day.


#4

Yeah, I wondered about the water ret. myself when I read that. I read it from an at least halfway respectable site. I'd post it, but I'm not sure if I can post links.


#5

So I still haven't decided if I'm going to start this tomorrow, but if I do, do you think there is any need to see how my body tolerates it at a lower dose (read: bad side effects) or do you think I could go up to 30mg immediately?


#6

What are current stats? What were your stats when you started your cycle?

What bad side effects did you hear about dbol? Try 30mg a day, split into three seperate doses.

And what 'halfway respectable site' did you read that nolvadex will decrease water retention from?

What are you using as an AI?


#7

Start with 30-50mg a day. It only has a 6 our half life, if anything happens that you don't like, it wont take long at all to clear your system.

I take mine morning, 2 hours pre workout (or an hour post workout,) and before bed. The workout dose depends on if I am working out mid day or in the evening.


#8

domesticgear.com/dianabol.html

The site suggests running Nolva w/Dbol and maybe proviron..although I'd have to go back thru the article again to see if it explicitly says anything about mitigating water ret, I'm pretty sure it was implicit..don't have time to peruse the article atm.

I'm going to try 30-40 mg of Dbol until I run out of the 10mgx50 pkg dosing 3xday.

Now I do have Novadex XT, I have taken it in the past, noticed it helped w/water retention and a "leaner" look maybe. I have Nolvadex to, so I'm not sure if it makes sense to use Novadex. I just know that when I wasn't on cycle the Nov. helped give me a more defined look. I'm still waiting on AI's to come in the mail. I expect them by early-mid OCtober hopefully. Too bad I don't have them now. Chalk up to first cycle/live/learn thing.

I can vouch for Novadex XT in the "raising T" dept. as I had blood tests before and after ~6 weeks of use at ~3-4 capsules a day. My baseline is a TRT inspiring 200 something ng/dl. Blood panel after the Novadex was in the 900's so that can only suggest to me it does "control" E.

Having said that I'm not saying I endorse it for PCT or anything other than recreational T increase...at the price of sex drive if not taken w/"real" T.


#9

Your last line is very telling. It has also been published that Novedex XT has lead to false postives when it comes to T increases. It converts to a substance that gets recognized as testosterone but actually isnt. If your T levels did actually rise from 200 to 900 you'd certainly have a rise in libido. Stay away from that shit.


#10

Thanks for the feedback. That's interesting regarding the false positives.

Irrespective of Novadex though, it's my understanding you can raise T all you want but if it's at the price of dramatically decreased E, e.g. AI's, you're going to lose sex drive. Agree? That's why I would never, knowing what I know now, use an AI as the only source of increasing T.


#11

I don't know enough about the use of AI's to raise T to comment. Bill Roberts has spoke of low dose AI use off cycle for performance enhancing but that's as much as I know about it.


#12

So you want to add a highly aromatising drug (dbol) to an already highly aromatising drug (test) without the use of an AI?

I wonder if you'll still have the "chalk it up to first cycle/live/learn thing" mentality if you kill your sex drive for the duration of your cycle and end up with gyno.


#13

"So you want to add a highly aromatising drug (dbol) to an already highly aromatising drug (test) without the use of an AI?"

I wonder if you'll still have the "chalk it up to first cycle/live/learn thing" mentality if you kill your sex drive for the duration of your cycle and end up with gyno."

Your altruism is appreciated. I have been taking Nolva the duration of the cycle so far. The first sign of gyno I get w/the Dbol I'll just quit....Hopefully I'm not out of mind...Doesn't seem too crazy.


#14

You seem overly concerned with water retention, and too little concerned with controlling your estrogen. Do what you want.

Expect to gain a SIGNIFICANT amount of water weight with Dbol. I gained 8lbs of water in a day from Dbol and I was using an AI.

You still never posted your beginning stats, nor your current stats.


#15

I think he is a lost cause, he doesn't want to listen to us or do proper research. Might as well let this thread die.


#16

"I think he is a lost cause, he doesn't want to listen to us or do proper research. Might as well let this thread die."

I don't write War and Peace posts (collectively on diff. topics) w/out the intent to learn something. I've made tons of posts on msg boards recently. I don't think I've done much/any postulating and I'm interested in your advice. I'm very good at finding info myself but I think learning from those w/more experience (my first cycle) than me w/aas is very efficient.

I am very interested in not having excess estrogen. In hindsight, I wish I had done more research and purchased the AI's early on. I thought I knew what I was doing but soon after I made my "purchase", I realized that Nolva was not king of the jungle in terms of ancill's..I've since purchased adex,letro and proviron, and waiting.

My current stats are 37, 5'9", 187, 33in. jeans (FWIW)..My stats haven't changed much, just more noticable water ret. (I'm still 5'9"). I had an ill-timed rotator cuff injury which kept me out of the gym for 2 weeks (I think I may have overdone something on a rot. cuff exercise the week before) but it is getting better and I can still workout and hoping for it to be completely healed in a week. My cycle started 9/3.

I think the AI issue is a dead issue (shoulda had it yesterday). If there's any more advice, feel free.

Appreciate the feedback.


#17

I think you will find that of your height, weight and waist size (which incidently the stats given put you at skinny-fat) that your height is the one that is least likely to change much... lol!

I would NOT call you VERY good.. in fact i wouldn't call you good even. You can do it.. but not well. The sooner you admit this to yourself the quicker you will be able to change that. it is nothing to be ashamed of..

The reason we (in general) here tend to ask new posters to find out information for themselves is simple.
When using drugs like anabolic-androgenic steroids you will more often than not come up against a problem during or after a cycle that will require some level of intellect, common sense and relevant knowledge to deal with.

If you have been told step by step what to do with little understanding, then you will be less equipped to deal with this problem than if you researched the compounds and all possible outcomes yourself - and thus also know where to quickly find information to help you in your issue solving.

Just to point out - this in my opinion isn't very good research.

Well done for finally admitting you thought you knew what you were doing but did not and that you have actually followed the advice given.

As per your knowledge on the area of AI's - it is again lacking. Proviron is not an AI, it is a DHT derived anabolic steroid with aromatase affinity but not capable of being converted to estrogen (or 1methyl-estradiol as the case would technically be i suppose).
It is not useful as an AI and is not in the category of drugs known as Aromatase Inhibitors.

I know what you have read suggests diferent, but it is NOT. Trust me.

Secondly, you have no need for 2 AI's (you actually bought what you though to be three didn't you). I can only assume that as you don't know the correct drug to use you thought it would be prudent to buy all you could.
I don't consider that prudent personally, i consider it silly and demonstrative of someone with more money than sense (as i again assume you don't have the cheapest source available).

Anyway - either Letrozole or Anastrazole will suffice here. Adding the Proviron as you have it may increase libido and also increase the quality to your physique if your bodyfat is under ~13% IME. High androgen levels tend to do this no matter the drug.

Best.


#18

Thanks for the feedback JJ

If I get taller you'll be the first to know =>D

I'm 3 days on the dbol. I've been using Nolva avging 20mg daily since my Test cycle started. I don't look like a blowfish yet, but it's still early and the dbol will come to a screeching halt if I do. I agree about the AI's. I wish I would've had one from the start of my cycle.

Yeah, I know proviron it is not an AI, I bought as a support agent..I'm on TRT also, which may be something I add to that regimen. For adding extra T, it sounds pretty good. The reason I bought the letro and adex is that I've read that letro is better for gynecomastia while some suggest adex for addressing general AI issues. Also, the site has a minimum purchase requirement and I was desperate for an AI at that point. The site I wanted to use was "down" unfortunately or I probably would've simply bought adex or letro.

One thing I'm hoping is that I don't get too fat on this cycle, I did a bf measurement at work using an electronic thing you hold and press go - 19.6% bf. Very high bf for a cycle I understand. I don't know how much a difference an AI at the beginning of my cycle would have made, but wish I had had it. I'm just hoping the AI's I ordered arrive sooner than later. I've gained some belly fat (water too maybe?), but nothing drastic at this point.

I've noticed overall on the cycle my appetite hasn't increased that much. Should I be feeling that much of an increase in hunger by now (week 4)? I've heard people talking about changing their wardrobes after cycle and such, but hope after a 10-12 week cycle wouldn't outgrow even my "fat jeans". I'm about 33/34, my fat jeans are about a 36


#19

Thanks.

fair enough - as i said it was an assumption and they don't always work out accurate..

Uh actually it will not add extra T at all.. it simply does not work like this.
It is also useless as an anabolic (as a direct DHT derivative)

Okay... I am not sure what 'general AI issues' are or why Gyno does not qualify as an issue of aromatase activity.. Simply put, what you read is wrong.

Great plan.. i personally would have bought more anabolics or some different but equally useful ancillary such as caber, finasteride, a SERM, cialis.. etc.

IMO that ship has sailed i'm afraid. Being too fat before a cycle drastically increases the likely hood of being too fat after your (bulking) cycle.

I get the impression you expect a little too much from the AI at this point. it WILL stop excess fat and water accumulation as a direct result of estrogen level BUT it will not (with your cycle) decrease the water and fat you clearly carry already.

Man - you are about the worst person to be using steroids right now i swear. I honestly feel sorry for you as i have a strong suspicion this will NOT end in your favour.

The (mythical) stories you have heard about needing a new wardrobe after one cycle are extreme to say the least.
The only person who would need to do such a thing would have not only gained a maximum amount of 30lbs during the cycle but would have outgrown all their clothes already.

What also is clear, is that you are using your waist measurement as a means to measure growth.. so you are hoping you don't put on 3-5" on your waist in one cycle - and you are already 20%?

Honestly, your waist should increase the least of all girth measurements if you are trying to build an aesthetic physique (for women, men or judges alike).

Now i cant remember if i have read any of this thread, if so i forgot your goals.. so if you are a strength athlete then i heartily apologise and you go for it man.
If however you are trying to add muscle (as your expectation of weight gain and drug choices seem to suggest), then you need to dial in your diet and not worry so much about water and concentrate more on your adipose tissues.

sorry i am harsh.. but you are 4 weeks in and IMO you need a short sharp shock.

Don't get low, or spend ages typing intelligent and cutting replies - just jump into action :wink:

So - i am NOT saying 'cut' - i don't actually use or recommend 'bulk' or 'cut' regimes for anyone other than those who are utterly committed to drastic lifestyle changes.
But eat clean, eat maintenance kcals, eat high protein, control carbs and moderate (EFA's etc.) fats, high fibre and drink lots of water.

Dont 'go on' a diet but simply 'have a good' diet. It will serve you much better than a 'cut' or 'bulk' will IME.

:slight_smile: