T Nation

Conservatives And Liberals

The is a lot of agitation between people who identify themselves as conservatives and people who identify themselves as liberals.

In a literal sense:

If you are a conservative what is it that you want to conserve?

If you are a liberal what is it that you want to be liberated from?

An example would be great?

Is there really much of a difference between the two?

Or is the label conservative or liberal just a means for political powers to divide and conquer for their own benefit?

The answer to your questions:

The past.

socially, conservatives dont want change to traditional values, and liberals want to “liberate” people, that is give them more personal freedoms (which is generally at odds with the social conservative).

…whereas a fiscal conservative would be better characterized as “a person who understands economics”.

Fiscally, I am conservative. Socially, I am liberal.

I want the government to keep its paws off my money.

I want the government to stay out of peoples personal lives.

Business is an area where there needs to be a balance. While I’m against red tape and restrictions I am also against wanton disregard of the environment, employees or investors.

The political term conservative and liberal has nothing to do with the literal sense of the word.

The basic philosophies are based upon governmental power, and control.

Liberal - Larger government

Conservative - Smaller government

Yes this is an oversimplification, and is not always true. But generally it is. And this is no way says that either is superior to the other.

I however do believe one is, in the current times, superior to the other. (The philosophy, not the people.)

Anyway Liberals believe that the government must be doing more to help the people. And that it is wrong not to help those in need. So larger programs, which must be funded by larger taxes, can help all achieve the American dream. We cannot have these starving people, especially children, in the streets.

But Conservatives believe that the government generally gets in peoples say. If you want to be successful, then you just need to get off your ass and achieve. If you trust in the government to do it for you, you are not only a fool, but a lazy one at that. The government actually causes more trouble then it solves when attempting to help people.

Now your assignment is to write a 10 page essay discussing each philosophy in detail. No plagiarism will be tolerated. This is worth a third of your grade.

If you feel the government is there to provide a standard of living for you and your family and that they know best when it comes to spending your money…your most likely a liberal.

If you think you know what is best for your and your family and that a smaller government is best…your probably a conservative.

I believe the common quote that people are socially liberal yet fiscally conservative is a misnomer of a cliche. The two are intertwined.

[quote]WguitarG wrote:
I believe the common quote that people are socially liberal yet fiscally conservative is a misnomer of a cliche. The two are intertwined. [/quote]

I’m not sure I follow you here. It sounds like what you’re saying is that because I favor smaller government, less spending and lower taxes…then I also have to support things like school prayer, right-to-life and invasion under false pretenses. Am I missing something?

[quote]tme wrote:
WguitarG wrote:
I believe the common quote that people are socially liberal yet fiscally conservative is a misnomer of a cliche. The two are intertwined.

I’m not sure I follow you here. It sounds like what you’re saying is that because I favor smaller government, less spending and lower taxes…then I also have to support things like school prayer, right-to-life and invasion under false pretenses. Am I missing something?

[/quote]

I think what he is mostly refering to is wellfare and socialized medicine and things like that. Because it is hard to support those things and support low taxes.

But I’m guessing.

To cut this short due to lack of sleep, social liberals favor government funded programs that offer aid to the needy at the expense of higher taxes and more government intervention of the market(yes, the free market is a social aspect of our society), all of which are fiscally liberal as well. I understand how you could be confused by the brevity of my statement.

[quote]hedo wrote:
If you feel the government is there to provide a standard of living for you and your family and that they know best when it comes to spending your money…your most likely a liberal.

If you think you know what is best for your and your family and that a smaller government is best…your probably a conservative.[/quote]

Well I definitely fall into the second category, so by your definition (and mine, incidentally) I’m a conservative. But I can’t think of a single thing to like about Bushit, and most Republican members of congress make me want to puke in disgust, so according to Zebbie I’m a “bottom-feeding liberal”.

So many people here seem to see things as purely black and white with no room for individual opinion. It’s all about us vs. them, with us or against us, conservative or liberal, republican or democrat. Accept the fact that in this world there is no absolute black or white, only infinite shades of gray.

Yes Bushit cut taxes and that’s a good thing. But then he nearly doubled federal spending, and that’s not so good. The main benefactors of Bushit’s second term will be big business and not me directly. But most of the stock I own is in big business, so I’ll still come out ahead and that’s a good thing. But most of those gains will be wiped out before I retire when the economy collapses under the weight of the Bushit deficit. Not so good.

But in the end I voted for Kerry, so I guess I’m a bleeding-heart tree-hugging baby-killing bible-banning flag-burning gun-confiscating gay-marrying bottom-feeding Liberal after all.

[quote]tme wrote:
hedo wrote:
If you feel the government is there to provide a standard of living for you and your family and that they know best when it comes to spending your money…your most likely a liberal.

If you think you know what is best for your and your family and that a smaller government is best…your probably a conservative.

Well I definitely fall into the second category, so by your definition (and mine, incidentally) I’m a conservative. But I can’t think of a single thing to like about Bushit, and most Republican members of congress make me want to puke in disgust, so according to Zebbie I’m a “bottom-feeding liberal”.

So many people here seem to see things as purely black and white with no room for individual opinion. It’s all about us vs. them, with us or against us, conservative or liberal, republican or democrat. Accept the fact that in this world there is no absolute black or white, only infinite shades of gray.

Yes Bushit cut taxes and that’s a good thing. But then he nearly doubled federal spending, and that’s not so good. The main benefactors of Bushit’s second term will be big business and not me directly. But most of the stock I own is in big business, so I’ll still come out ahead and that’s a good thing. But most of those gains will be wiped out before I retire when the economy collapses under the weight of the Bushit deficit. Not so good.

But in the end I voted for Kerry, so I guess I’m a bleeding-heart tree-hugging baby-killing bible-banning flag-burning gun-confiscating gay-marrying bottom-feeding Liberal after all.

[/quote]
there is definitely a middle

[quote]tme wrote:
Well I definitely fall into the second category, so by your definition (and mine, incidentally) I’m a conservative. But I can’t think of a single thing to like about Bushit, and most Republican members of congress make me want to puke in disgust, so according to Zebbie I’m a “bottom-feeding liberal”.

So many people here seem to see things as purely black and white with no room for individual opinion. It’s all about us vs. them, with us or against us, conservative or liberal, republican or democrat. Accept the fact that in this world there is no absolute black or white, only infinite shades of gray.

Yes Bushit cut taxes and that’s a good thing. But then he nearly doubled federal spending, and that’s not so good. The main benefactors of Bushit’s second term will be big business and not me directly. But most of the stock I own is in big business, so I’ll still come out ahead and that’s a good thing. But most of those gains will be wiped out before I retire when the economy collapses under the weight of the Bushit deficit. Not so good.

But in the end I voted for Kerry, so I guess I’m a bleeding-heart tree-hugging baby-killing bible-banning flag-burning gun-confiscating gay-marrying bottom-feeding Liberal after all. [/quote]

I have written nearly the same many times only to be told by some here that I am liberal simply because I don’t agree with the actions of the current administration. It is that blind labeling of people that allows them to disregard what the other is actually saying. I am not a liberal and have written that several times. I do not want “big government” and I don’t think the government needs to handle my finances. I am also not “conservative”. No one will actually listen to the points of the other until the labels are dropped. It seems to be en vogue lately to act as if anyone who is not “conservative” and a loyal fan of FOX news is anti-american and an idiot. I have no problem with traditional values. I was raised by them. I do have a problem when the government decides to step in and force beliefs based on these “values” through laws and further restrictions. It would seem that the ones who really want “big government” are the conservatives. I mean, seriously, hasn’t the government attained more power under this administration?

Wow, this thread is going down the craphole.

First of all saying there are shades of gray, but then calling Bush something like Bushit, and to consider that there are no shades of gray in Bush’s actions is hypocritical.

For everybody?s information Bush is a liberal. Not a conservative, but a liberal. I don?t agree with everything he has done, like all the big spending. Bigger government spending makes him a liberal.

Who the hell said everyone has to agree with Bush in all things?

I prefer not to label myself as a conservative, because I like to keep my mind open, but when the definition of a conservative is smaller government, I realized I had to accept I am a conservative. But that may change. If I believe things go to far to the right, then I would become a liberal. That simple.

Saying a person is a liberal is not a bad thing. It is simply a political position. Now to complain about what liberals do is another thing.

Too many (not all) liberals have gone off the deep end. Lost it. This thread is an example of that. And if they don’t get it together, they are going to be out of power for a long time.

I never had a problem with a disagreement with the war. What I always had a problem is destruction of a person, and the complete rejection of a war just because one party wants to get another into power.

Also the hate was just over the top. Bush just made Condoleeza Rice the most powerful African American female in American history. Is this acknowledged by the left? No. Instead Bush is evil. Hate Bush and everything connected to Bush.

I thought the Democrats were supposed to be the party against hate, but that is all I am hearing from them. Hate Bush, Hate Bush, Hate Bush… And suddenly they turn it around and complain that he divided the country. After two years of nothing but constant attacks on him.

There is a complete blindness on the left right now. People don’t even actually read the posts, but fill in the imaginary blanks to add something nobody ever talked about. For example when Prof X brought up FOX news, and how you have to agree with them. Who the hell ever said that? I have not read every single post here, but I don’t think a single conservative has really brought up Fox news, but the liberal keep doing so. Why, especially when nobody on the right is bringing it up.

And I should mention to tme that you do not understand anything about economics. What is good for “big business” is good for the people. For some reason some people think the economics are somehow separate for the rich and the poor, or for the businesses and the people. It is not, it is actually very much like nature. The circle of life thing. (Or for the South Park enthusiasts the circle of poo.)

A business crates jobs. The people make money off of working, and if smart invests a portion. (If not gets tons of credit, and goes into hock.) Those people spend money which goes into corporations, who take that money and invest it, or pass it on to the shareholders, or into the mom and pop household budget. That money again is circulated through the economy. Jobs are created, and employees make more money, which leads to more investing, more jobs, and more profit. That profit does not just get dumped into some giant cookie jar somewhere.

Unfortunately any number of people can fuck things up along the way. Increased taxes is a drag on an economy. Management doesn’t acknowledge the employees by paying them enough, and they go elsewhere, or even go start up competition across the street.

The big problem here is seeing you success as being outside of yourself. If it is true that you cannot be successful unless somebody else does something, then you are no different then the NAFFA members. I don’t think anyone here uses the excuse of genetics, or those evil corporations like McDonalds putting out fattening food as the reason they are not in shape. It is the same with finances. You want money, then you go get it. That doesn?t mean hurting others, in fact it is easier if you are helping people. Solving their problems.

But we learned one important thing here. tme believes in tax cuts, and smaller government budgets. Therefore tme is a conservative.

[quote]The Mage wrote:

There is a complete blindness on the left right now. People don’t even actually read the posts, but fill in the imaginary blanks to add something nobody ever talked about. For example when Prof X brought up FOX news, and how you have to agree with them. Who the hell ever said that? I have not read every single post here, but I don’t think a single conservative has really brought up Fox news, but the liberal keep doing so. Why, especially when nobody on the right is bringing it up.
[/quote]

I brought up FOX news because they are clearly biased towards the right. You didn’t have to bring them up for me to associate them with conservatives. I have also not written anything about HATRED towards Bush, yet that didn’t stop you from making generalizations. I can dislike and disagree with this administration without professing HATRED towards another human being. Again, it seems as if you can judge but if anyone with a different view point does the same thing, you are quick to call them out on it. There is a term for that.

TME- “gun confiscating liberal”

Well I hope your kidding about that part. Wyoming residents are “gun totin”
:slight_smile:

It seems though that management generally doesn’t pay as much as they (the employees) think they should, or give enough vacation (some of the lowest in the industrialized world) and CEO’s make more money annually, compared to the other employees, than ever before. Combined with things like Enron and WorldCom and the lack of punishment against the people who did it leads a lot of people to distrust corporations. This leads to company theft of all kinds, copies, office supplies, expense accounts, etc., because people feel as if they are owed things that they have not received. I’m not saying that Corporations are across the board “EVIL” or anything, but I do think this is how some people feel.
Anyway, I got kind of off topic here. How many have taken this quiz? http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html
When I think smaller gov’t, I don’t think “conservative”, or “liberal”. It did kind of make me laugh the way “liberal” was said in all those Republican commercials. It’s like they were saying it as if it was the same word as “person-who-sets-children-on-fire” or something like that. When they kept calling Kerry and others “liberals” I kept thinking, “No shit Sherlock, he’s Democrat!”

Anyway, the quiz says I lean toward Libertarianism.

To-Shin Do

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I brought up FOX news because they are clearly biased towards the right… [/quote]

Prover their biased towards the right. Maybe they appear right leaning simply because of the eilitist media’s unabashed leftist bias?

I’m tired of Fox News being the poster child for ‘right-wing’ bias without anyone showing a shread of proof.

We’ve got proof out the wazoo of CBS, NYT, the WaPo, and the LA Times being a propaganda shill for the left. Show some proof of Fox’s ‘right-wing’ bias.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Professor X wrote:
I brought up FOX news because they are clearly biased towards the right…

Prover their biased towards the right. [/quote]

I watch their morning show on a regular basis simply because it is on when I get to work in the morning. You are the first to even attempt to hold the position that they are not biased to the right. If your justification is that everyone else is “leftist”, that is your opinion. As far as PROVING it, I do not have access to nor would I even know how to find transcripts of their shows to show you how biased they are.

[quote]The Mage wrote:
The political term conservative and liberal has nothing to do with the literal sense of the word.

The basic philosophies are based upon governmental power, and control.

Liberal - Larger government

Conservative - Smaller government
.[/quote]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,138900,00.html

It would appear that conservatives have abandoned the idea of “smaller government”. It would appear that your definitions need to be adjusted.