"How can a bunch of terrorists gathering in one spot to fight our military be bad for us? That’s a hell of a lot better than the greasy bastard hiding in New York waiting to blow up the Empire State Building. "
Great logic. Maybe you should proceed to illegaly occupy other middle east countries and kill a few more thousnnd civilians in each so you can keep terrorists buzy outside america.
"Why exactly do you expect America to bend over for any other country? Why should we ever accept being attacked? If I am sitting alone in a bar and somebody comes over and slugs me in the face, I don’t just sit down and wonder what I did to cause him to hit me, I slug him back. Should all women who get raped be yelled at for causing their attack? By justifying the attack on 911 you are saying that Al Qaeda was justified, and everything they do is ok? "
So you are saying that 7000 civilians, including women and children, deserved to die, even though they have nothing to do with 9-11?
"Now can anyone tell me when exactly we gave “billions” to Bin Laden? I know of some training he received before he went over the edge. He was already rich from his family business, but I know of no time where we just gave him “billions.” It would be easier to continue this discussion if we are discussing facts and not just make up things. It causes any argument to become suspect. "
It doesn’t matter what anyone tells you because your nationalistic blindness doesn’t allow you to listen. You trained and supported the guy, like you armed and supported Saddam, but only when about 40% of the oil reserve started slipping trough your fingers you decided to act.
I didn’t see the slightest concern from america, or Europe for that matter, when he was using chemical weapons in his people. The oil made up for everything.
Tell me Mage, how come you say that you’re bringing democracy to Iraq when Bush administration doesn’t allow the regime Iraquis want to be in power.
And how come you want help from the international community but you’re refusing to let other countries have a share in Iraq reconstruction contracts and oil field administration?
This is all over the news all over Europe, do you hear these things there?
The Mage: I know some of the experts (aka. ppl that aren’t white house pawns) said the war could take a while. Bush and his boys were pretty much promising an easy job where they could waltz in and the iraqis would run away like little schoolgirls. That’s what I am getting at, the administration always has to make ppl believe their point of view. (I could get started on bush’s “black adn white” speech about countries either being with us or against us, against us implying they are terrorist supporting commie bastards, but I won’t)
And if it was all about the oil why did we fight a war and subsequent expensive occupation?
It would’ve been easier and cheaper to just lift the sanctions and buy it from Saddam.
Sorry buddy, Saddam used mostly Soviet and French equipment. Yea thats right the French, they sold Saddam a good number of tanks, armored vehicles and helicopters. When we worked with Saddam before because he was fighting the Iranians and seemed the lesser of two evils.
World politics is crazy like that, sometimes you make deals with the devil to get what seems like your best interest at the time. But times change, understand that.
And calling anyone, who has common sense about this matter, blinded by nationalistic propaganda is like invoking Hitler to end any argument. It just makes you look stupid.
"And if it was all about the oil why did we fight a war and subsequent expensive occupation?
It would’ve been easier and cheaper to just lift the sanctions and buy it from Saddam."
It wouldn’t be possible because regardless of what you people think, the USA does not control ONU. You can clearly over ride it and any international laws, including the Geneva convention resolutions, but you don’t control it.
Have a look at the major companies profiting from Iraq’s illegal invasion and occupation:
http://www.usatoday.com/money/2003-03-26-rebuild.htm
What a coincidence, Bush fiends from Texas are number ONE!! I’m sure it’s just a unhappy coincidence.
"Sorry buddy, Saddam used mostly Soviet and French equipment. Yea thats right the French, they sold Saddam a good number of tanks, armored vehicles and helicopters. When we worked with Saddam before because he was fighting the Iranians and seemed the lesser of two evils.
World politics is crazy like that, sometimes you make deals with the devil to get what seems like your best interest at the time. But times change, understand that. "
Sure. I actually have a list of all the companies that supplied items related to WMD’s construction to Iraq and although there are some French, Spanish and English ones, the majority are big American corporations.
“And calling anyone, who has common sense about this matter, blinded by nationalistic propaganda is like invoking Hitler to end any argument. It just makes you look stupid.”
There’s actually a huge propaganda operation being undertaken in all the US which single purpose is to feed your delusional paranoical fear of Muslims and picture all of them as murderous terrorists. Just have a look at book stores shelves everywhere across the USA.
On the bright side, it seems like Bush is actually getting into trouble so maybe Americans do deserve a little more credit than I’m willing to give them:
Mage, what you are stating is basically cultural imperialism. Following that logic then there is no reason why the US shouldn’t sail on over to Africa and enslave a few million of them.
see where this is headed?
Culture is not the same as the political actions of a group. By your logic then the culture of Texas is neo-con Republicans with a love for the death penalty. I don’t think that represents all Texans.
There are obviously many Afghani’s and Iraqis who disagreed with their governments actions, as there are many Americans who disagree with the current administration.
Osama was brought in to fight with the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan because of his reputation with the Saudi Secret Service (GID).
The Saudi’s along with the US were major backers of the Mujahedeen in their war against Russia.
Money was funneled through The Bank of Commerce and Credit International, orginally set up by CIA Director George Bush & a Saudi Prince.
Pakistani Intelligence (ISI) were involved in coordinating and getting this money & weapons to the Mujahedeen, of whom 2 prominent members were future Taliban ruler Mullah Omar & Osama.
Of course Bin Laden is rich through his family’s construction empire - which has done business and invested, through Saudis, in Harken Energy (CEO G.W. Bush). Huh, theres that Bush name again.
Later on in the story there was a dispute between Kuwait & Iraq over stealing oil (pre-invasion).
The Saudis sided with Kuwait, so then Pres. pappy Bush did too, and Saddam- whom they had used to fight a war against Iran now became public enemy number 1.
Bush did not want to piss off the Saudis, and was a good chance to grab some power in the Middle East.
About this time Osama denounced the Saudi ruling family for allowing the US military to be based near Mecca. He then began to organize and move against the Saudis, and then came the bombing of US barracks and USS Cole.
Who is getting paid during this expensive occupation?
Halliburton & Blechtel - who Cheney is more than familiar with. They have the contracts and are being paid by the US Gvmt to rebuild Iraq, including the oil industry of course.
Think Cheney or Rice (ex-CEO of Chevron) don’t have any connection? What do you think their gonna do after they leave office? Stock groceries?
Buying Iraqi oil would upset the Saudis greatly, and would definately be frowned upon by the UN as well as numerous groups inside the US.
Restless: You said, “So you are saying that 7000 civilians, including women and children, deserved to die, even though they have nothing to do with 9-11?”
How come you can make a statement about the 911 attacks and when I respond it is a comment about Iraq? Can you follow a logical discussion? This statement had nothing to do with Iraq. Didn’t you even read the quote of your own statement? Here it is again, “Why isn’t 9-11 also a clear example of their despair?”
Also why do you keep bringing up the idea of being nationalistic? You have repeatedly stated that America must give up all rights and bend to the will of every other country. Also I am not blinded by anything. I will admit readily that this country is full of idiots. Most of them are trying to ruin this country, whether they know it or not.
I am sorry if caring about my country bothers you, oh wait, I don’t care if it bothers you. Is it perfect? No. But I have yet to find a better country anywhere. Your statements only show your “blind” hate for this country.
As for brining Democracy to Iraq, it does not happen overnight. First there must be something in place, a transitional government. Then the Iraqi’s will vote and choose the direction they want to go. It will be up to them to decide whether they go far, or just fuck it all up.
The biggest thing about oil is that it gives them a pool of money that constantly flows, and this is what gives Iraq so much more power then North Korea. North Korea spends all their money on their military, and their whole economy is going to eventually destroy that country. Iraq on the other had is sitting on a pool of oil which gave Iraq the ability to spend recklessly without ever worrying about running out of cash.
Few people realize what the true effects of this action are on the Mid-East. In ten years this area may be a lot more stable, but only if we stay the course. Also there is still a lot of brainwashing going on in the area. This is the hardest thing to overcome.
Ren: I remember the repeated statements trying to prepare the United States for a long drawn out war. Here is a quote from Bush on the day the war started:
“A campaign on the harsh terrain of a nation as large as California could be longer and more difficult than some predict. And helping Iraqis achieve a united, stable and free country will require our sustained commitment.”
Yep, that means a quick war. (Sarcasm) this is a transcript from BBC, and can be found here:
Back to Restless: It does not matter which country benefits from the conflict. You use this to make false and illogical connections. There are people all over the world that are capable of making money off any situation. Good events and they make money. Bad events and they make money. America has produced a large number of people who are extremely capable of doing this. Haven’t you ever known anyone who, no matter what happened to them they ended on top? These people seem to be the luckiest people in the world, but that is only because most don’t realize that these people look at the situation differently. This is where the quote, “every cloud has a silver lining” came from. I forget what language uses the same word for crisis as opportunity.
And if you think that the government is trying to make all Muslims look like terrorists, you obviously don’t know what is going on. As far as what books are available at bookstores, I can find everything and anything at a bookstore. If it is not there then it can be ordered. This is a result of something called freedom of speech.
Now I have been in bookstores repeatedly (I am a compulsive reader,) and I have actually seen a lot of books about Muslims, their culture, and lifestyle. I don’t think I have seen any book that ever seemed to say that all Muslims were terrorists. I even remember Bush calling for Americans to know that the terrorists were just a minority of extremists who were abusing this “peaceful religion.” (In quotes because those were the words he actually used, but everything else was paraphrased.)
It is so fascinating that you know exactly what information we receive here so well, and you know that we have absolutely no different source of information, or news, and we are incapable of knowing what other news sources say. I know your bias is that all Americans are foolish, uninformed, brainwashed sheep, and yet I meet people every day who have completely different opinions, and beliefs. I had a friend who just went into the marines, and he was from South Africa. I also know a person from Bosnia. I have known people from South Korea, India, England, Russia, Ethiopia, Pakistan, Mexico, Puerto Rico, Los Angeles, and a bunch of other countries I can’t recall right now. Do you think I have no access to other ideas and thoughts?
Ok I agree that our media tends to be biased (liberally) and people seem to get upset when another news source with a different point of view shows up, if it does not support their view that is. LA news is reporting the coming election differently in English then in Spanish. This is crap. They should be getting both sides in both languages. (Vote Coleman in 2003!)
But to imply that foreign sources of news are completely unbiased sources of absolute truth only shows your “blindness.”
Kuri: Yes, there are many Iraqis and Afghanis who disagreed with their government, but if they spoke their mind they were put to death. Also where the hell you get this idea that anything I said makes slavery acceptable is beyond me. I keep talking about freedom, and yet you are the one that brings up slavery. I remember somebody stating (don’t feel like searching right now,) that (paraphrased, I think,) “At least the Iraqi’s had food, water, and shelter before the war.” Which would be that same as saying that the slaves from the 1800’s at least had food shelter and water before being freed. Nobody here, not you, not Restless, or anybody else would ever support slavery, so don’t imply that I would.
And you still didn’t show us sending “Billions” to Osama (Usama?)
One Billion Dollars
Here is something I was talking about earlier. The Japanese word for Crisis is written as Danger + Opportunity.
"As for brining Democracy to Iraq, it does not happen overnight. First there must be something in place, a transitional government. Then the Iraqi’s will vote and choose the direction they want to go. It will be up to them to decide whether they go far, or just fuck it all up. "
See, this is a clear example of how much your wishfull thinking gets in the way of a true perception of what’s actually going on. Bush has stated in public that he’s not tolerating a pro Iranian regime as an example. What if that’s what Iarquis want? I’ve heard this from his mouth. Democracy? It can be done according to Iraquis will as long has it pleases Bush? What democracy? I’m sure I don’t have to explain to you what the latin roots of the word democracy mmean, or do I?
About your statements about the middle east being a safer place in 10 years, I seriously doubt it. Maybe we’ll still be here discussing this by then, who knows? Terrorism has gotten worst following Iraq’s invasion and Arabs hate you more than ever, and I guarantee you it’s not due to jealously. There are actually many places with rated higher in the human development index than the USA, particualrly in North Europe.
Hating the USA? No man. I might hate many things that came from there and I surelly despise the arrogant attitude you tend to display towards other countries and I possibly believe you are one of the biggest comtemporary threaths to world peace, but I don’t hate someone just for being north american.
"How come you can make a statement about the 911 attacks and when I respond it is a comment about Iraq? Can you follow a logical discussion? This statement had nothing to do with Iraq. "
Since the Iraq’s link to Al-Qaeda was one of the ridiculous arguments used by that fool you call president to illegaly invade Iraq, the two became related. Not that I think there’s anymore of a connection between the two than there is with any other muslim country anywhere in the world, but since it’s one of your justifications mentioning one is mentioning the other. In the end it’s all a bunch of crap. This was a war about oil and to this day you failed to present evidence of any of your claims. Saddam was a menace to his people only and even while I agree he should have been kicked out you should be serving the people’s will and not your greedy interests now. And the people’s will is that you get the fuck out and leave their oil alone.
I’ll give you one more example of how the USA is breaking international laws. According the Geneve convention, that I know you don’t give a fuck about although it serves to preserve the minimum respect regarding human rights even during war, the rebuilding of the occupied nation is OF THE RESPONSABILITY OF THE INVADER, not of the invaded. That means that you taxes should be paying for the rebuilding of Iraq and not Iraquis oil. Not only is Bush spending your tax money while it ruins your country economy, but he’s using this to make his friends bank accounts larger.
And you? You’re a good patriot. You support anything he does.
Mage, I wasn’t implying that some US agent handed over suitcases of cash to Osama. Sorry to give that impression.
Over the years billions in funds have been funneled into organizations that support Al-Quaeda, mostly from Saudi sources, and US oil congolomerates buy about 70% (in the neighborhood) of their oil.
Saudi sources have financed Al-Quaeda from the beginning. head of FBI NYC office John O’Neill has stated “All of the answers, all of the clues allowing us to dismantle bin Laden’s organisation, can be found in Saudi Arabia.”
and since GW Bush took office “the FBI was even more politically engaged.”
The FBI have been prevented at every turn from digging too deep. FBI agents had their VISAS to Yemen yanked by the US ambassador
All of this has been documented by the FBI. In fact since 1996 the FBI was investigating the World Assembly of Muslim Youth (YAMY) office in Virgina run by Abdullah Bin Laden (Osama’s brother).
The FBI investigation was promptly shut down on 9/11/96. then lo and behold the WAMY suddenly appeared again on the list of terrorist organizations days after 9-11.
Meanwhile the Bin Ladens were flown back to Saudi on 9-12.
This is all info that I found while reading and echoed by the BBC and other sources.
US oil interests and Saudi money created Al-Quaeda, and directly led to the wars in Afghan & Irag.
The Saudis have had immunity for a long time due to US oil interests plain and simple.
Why do you think the infamous 28 blacked out pages from the 9-11 investigation have not been released?
The GW Bush administration is up to their ears in Saudi money and influence.
And our corporate media has somehow neglected to feature any of this information.
Whether mainstream journalists are liberal or not they are governed by corporate interests.
restless,
Well how are you, you hate-filled maggot? Haven’t missed your vitriole one little bit.
I wanted to clear up one of your misconceptions. Our economy is picking up steam. Jobless rates fell again the last quarter, our investors are gaining confidence every day (Hence Dow Jones Average over 9400), our dollar is strengthening, and George W. Bush is well on his way to being re-elected. I can’t wait for election night!!! Going to be thinking about you!!!
What was this crap about not hating the Americans? Do I have to, once again, repost your “top ten” list? No one is fooled.
In summary, your words are meaningless and we are still the dominant power on the planet. Have a nice day.
Restless, your lack of understanding about America is epic. You say that you only hate the US government, but you prove over and over that that is not the case. I bet you never smile.
" I bet you never smile. "
How much you want to bet?
I’ll bet you a dollar for every time you’ve been to the United States.
I don’t believe a word that the Bush administration says anymore, regarding this war. They’ve proved over and over again that they are LIARS.
One recent case in point is the capture of “Chemical Ali” the guy who we supposedly killed weeks ago. Please don’t give me the bullshit excuse about how “war is chaotic and we have to go with the information we have”, it is Bush administration PROPAGANDA. The point is to make the war effort seem MORE successful than it actually is.
Meanwhile, we spend ONE BILLION DOLLARS EACH WEEK we occupy Iraq. Sure, we “won” the war, but we have no exit strategy! The exit strategy we did have (Iraqis welcome us with open arms) turned out to be BULLSHIT like a lot of the other claims the administration made about this war.
Do you feel safer? I sure don’t. Read the original article again:
"Even before the coalition troops invaded, a senior United States counterterrorism official told reporters that “an American invasion of Iraq is already being used as a recruitment tool by Al Qaeda and other groups.”
This war is going to breed MORE terrorism and anti-US sentiment. Sure, I’m glad that Saddam is gone, he was an asshole. But in every transaction, you have to ask yourself “was it worth it?” Invading Iraq unilaterally was NOT the way to go. Getting rid of Saddam is NOT worth hundreds of BILLIONS of dollars, which is what this war is costing us.
And remember, there is NO guarantee that after we spend all those billions of dollars, that we will end up with an Iraq that is in the exact condition we want it to be in (pro-western, democracy).
This war is George Bush’s Viet Nam, and he will be a one-term president because of it, just like George senior.