T Nation

Consequences of war

As I scour over the news it seems that this war is looking more like the Tet. We won that battle, but lost the war. Terrorism is back on the rise and many sources say Al-Queeda has re-grouped. We may have gotten rid of a tyrant but have awoken a greater monster. I believe this nation and the world at large is less secure because of this war. So many people are waving flags and belting out so-called patriot songs over the kareoke machine they seem to be blind to the consequences this “war” has brought us.

By the way, what ever happened to the notion that Congress has to declare war? It’s funny how all those posers of “conservativism” (Rush, Hannity, etc.)barely blink an eye to this sort of stuff. Aren’t they supposed to be the party of smaller government? That’s kinda funny huh? Well, actually it’s quite sad.

Congress did pass a resolution allowing armed conflict in Iraq. Its just that after they did it the same democrats who voted for it suddenly were against it. And when was the last time the US was bombed or attacked? The last bombing was in the terrorists own backyard. This says to me that they are severly crippled. If the only damage I could do was blow up my backyard, you wouldnt think much of me would you? And what did we do before September 11th that made us deserve what happened? There was no war then. You are just another one of those chicken littles. Or better yet, a democrat who can only thrive if the economy and war on terrorism go bad.

Goldberg: Most of the Al Quada’s, et all attacks have traditionally been inside the middle east closer to where there actual goals lay. Anyway, it took bin Laden 10 years-- from the founding of aQ-- before he tried his first on US soil, given his reputation for patience and the principle of escalating violence-- which means he needs to “one up” 9/11-- would it not be logical to conclude that there may be operations forthcoming?

On a more general note, before the war I said 6mths-2 years before a full scale insurection begins in iraq, either against the US or whatever it put in place-- assuming it did so that quickly. I predicted this because of the inherent structure of iraqi domestic politics, and I stand by it still. --If anyone gives a shit, I can post some of the analysis on why the politics are so unstable, and essentially why a friendly, liberty-lovin’ democracy will not work within iraq as it is now constituted, as someone is always left out essentially–

I forgot my point. Anyway, it was something about regional instability. whatever…

 I dont believe for a second Al Qaeda has regrouped.

 One thing we do now know is they wont find support and housing in Afghanistan or Iraq where our troops roam the streets day and night.

 We also know they wont find assistance and support from those who had a bone to pick with us - Saddam, and the Taliban.

 We've caught a great number of Al Qaeda terrorists. This in itself discourages future members from joining. We've caught a few top aides of Osama. A few months back, Navy SEALS wer reportedly an hour behind him and missed him. Trust me, the guy is more occupied running away than planning a large scale attack in the US, even though it's always a possibility.

 War is never pretty. Some have died - soldiers and innocent civilians. It's sad. But the truth of the matter is, we ARE becoming safer now. And I dont mean simply by the actions we've taken - but by showing others the actions that will be taken if they continue to pose a serious threat to us and to the world. We've showed we're not just talk, and will use tremendous force if necessary. Iran and N korea, for example toned down after Iraq. They still pose a serious threat but they both want to avoid a war with us.

It’s more like roaming a street in Afghanistan. As far as I’ve heard, U.S. troops are only patrolling Kabul, and there’s plenty of area in that country to regroup, even if most of it is desert.

I doubt we’ll do what we promised in Iraq, ever. We certainly haven’t in Afghanistan, and neither have any other nations involved in the Afghani war. Do you really think we’re any safer when these kids whose houses were bombed grow into angry adults? And how long do you really expect our troops to be occupying these countries to ensure our safety?

Zeppelin,

You may have forgotten the attacks in the 90s when Clinton was president and there was no “war”, they still attacked us.

You may have forgotten the 9/11 attacks were planned in '98, when Clinton was pressuring Rabin to give back 97% of the land to the Palestinians and it looked like we were finally going to have peace.

Obviously, the people that say we are on the “wrong” track now, thought we were on the “right” track then, but we were still attacked.

People hate the US for many reasons and always have, it has nothing to do with any one president or foreign policy.

A great read is “The Anatomy of Motive” by John Douglas, he was one of the original psychological criminal profilers. He goes into great detail on what motivates people to strike out, and how they justify it with religion, jealousy, whatever they use. He also talks a little about terrorism, which he equates to mass murder/suicides that happen once in awhile here.

e.g. look at the “shoe bomber”, that guy was a f-ed up cokehead that had a crappy life, then he found a religion and he said “it saved me” but really his twisted version just gave him a vehicle to channel his own self-hatred onto others. It had nothing to do with Islam, or with the US even, we were just a convenient target.

"and essentially why a friendly, liberty-lovin’ democracy will not work within iraq as it is now constituted, as someone is always left out essentially-- "

I would be interested in why you feel this way. Or you can post any reading you recommend.

I don’t see how they can live together without a constitution that guaranteed individual rights (i.e. no Sunnis forced to follow Shia law, and vice versa)

Of course, that (and a free press) is more important than democracy itself. Since people could vote away the rights of others otherwise.

Maybe that is what you are referring to?

What really pisses me off is these Shias swarming in from Iran saying they want an Ismlamic government. What they really mean is a Shia government where everyone is forced to follow their version. We also had that problem between Protestants and Catholics, we finally ended much of the violence by separating government from religion. I think, Iraq will have to do that as well if they ever want peace. (Since even if they split up the country they would still fight over resources).

 Moses:

 I am aware our troops patrol the whole of Afghanistan.

 It wouldnt make sense to have our troops occupy a country to ensure our safety. We cannot afford to divert our resources into mere prevention with everything thats going on. Besides, it's not diplomatic, and we're not intent on conqeuring and occupying a country.


 As much space as Al Qaeda has in the glorious mountains of Afghanistan, I challenge them to successfully communicate with their counterparts around the world, train future terrorists properly, eat and drink, and so forth. You cannot grow potatos on a fucking sterile mountain that's so cold most would freeze to death during the winter.


 Another point - we are watching what's going on in those mountains and elsewhere in the region. We'll be able to see if someone builds a terrorist camp or headquarters there. 


 This is my belief - Al Qaeda is in the last stages of its death. It's like a dying pig who screams after its throat is slit - the pig is fucking dying but while it's a live it makes one hell of a noise.

 Al Qaeda will not be around 10 years from now. Even 5 years from now. They're scattered 'round and cant carry out large scale attacks in the 9/11 fashion. Their financial resources at this point are probably very limited. Top operatives have been captured. Those who havent are continuously on the run. They'll be caught eventually, but meanwhile, theyll be lucky if they can plan and carry out a small attack against overseas targets.

 Tell me Binny, where's your fuckin god now? We all thou-ght the Muslim expansion was coming.... Well, was it expanding outwards, or was it expanding inwards?

Hm… Time for a little prediction of my own.

I think that this administration is fumbling around and doesn’t know what the heck they are doing, or what is coming. My belief is that all the disparate forces that oppose us will eventually get over their differences and give us a tough fight. We may still win, being that we are militarily superior to any country in the world 20 times over, but not without some serious casualties. We are eventually going to get hit with one of those rogue nukes that got out of Russia. Maybe not the US itself, but our troops will get hit.

Let me add that I hope that I am totally wrong, but we just keep pushing things that direction. I don’t suggest that I have the answers either. The only way we could probaby avoid it is if we could go back in time to the 50’s and NOT overthrow the Mossedegh goverment. That was the beginning of some of the well-deserved anti-American sentiment that is so ubiquitous in the middle east.

those people over there have been fighting with each other for 6,000 years. Its not going to stop with some governmental settlement. Those people are nuts over there. They dont think like most of us do.

Goldberg said it very well. Those people will continue fighting til Jesus Christ comes again. All else in between is filler material. In the meantime we must protect ourselves and the innocent overseas with whom we have alliances with.

Peace…

Diesel, you’re being naive.

Al Quaeda is far from dead - or dying.

Terrorist organisations din’t tend to hold street parades to announce their existence.

They use suicide bombers - which is back in fashoin with Al Quaeda it would appear.

Bin Laden hasn’t been captured, nor his second in command - snakes only tend to die when you cut off the head.

BTW: Analysts are also predicting a resurgence in AL Quaeda numbers due to the attack on Iraq: you’ve just made the buggers mad now.

If a wild animal kills another it is nothing more than natural selection. If you put them in an arena together and pit them together what does that make you?

You are right that they will just kill eachother over there, with or without us. Personally, I say let 'em. Natural selection. For the same reason I say we should legalize drugs… weed off the weak and stupid in the species.

The sad thing is that they were making progress before we interfered. We supposedly support any rise against oppression, and attempt to protect democracy, yet in the case of our involvement with Iran in the '50s, we overthrew a DEMOCRACY with a freely elected president because we didn’t want them to nationalize their oil industry, which Mossodegh was threatening to do. There was no Jihad back then. Things weren’t perfect but they were stable. We put a tyrant in power because it was someone we thought we could control. When he backfired on us, we went to his enemy (saddam) who was worse than the other, we gave them chemical weapons and supported them in the Iran/Iraq war.

See a pattern here? We have a great country, but a few people use our substantial power without long term thinking or responsibility, and we created all of these problems for ourselves. So, what does that make us? Is it natural selection if we create instability with our own meddling? When are we going to recognize some of our less-than-honorable acts in recent events quit repeating history.