T Nation

Confused on recruiting HTMUs

Nothing wrong with lifting smart if you can.

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
Nothing wrong with lifting smart if you can.[/quote]

There’s a difference in training smart and worrying about minutiae

Doing sets to failure, especially doing multiple, will recruit the most fast twitch motor units AND fatigue them - Thats why DC rest pause works so well, along with most other BB protocols that call for high volume.

Doing multiple sets, lifting fast, and lifting heavy also maximize motor unit recruitment, -westsides’ methods were no accident.

I don’t know where you saw that zatsiorsky said that slow movements recruit more motor units, in his book he says higher force = more motor units, and force is highest at highest acceleration.

Speed during the concentric portion of the movement allows the muscles to perceive a greater stress on them, hence the recruitment of the HTMUs. Hatfield wrote about this as well years ago as Compensatory Acceleration Training (CAT).

S

[quote]mmatt wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
Nothing wrong with lifting smart if you can.[/quote]

There’s a difference in training smart and worrying about minutiae[/quote]
With a zillion programs out there, it doesn’t hurt to know the why behind the what either. So far, this thread and the ensuing Google searches have been fascinating. Certainly food for thought. And I squatted this morning FWIW.

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]mmatt wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
Nothing wrong with lifting smart if you can.[/quote]

There’s a difference in training smart and worrying about minutiae[/quote]
With a zillion programs out there, it doesn’t hurt to know the why behind the what either. So far, this thread and the ensuing Google searches have been fascinating. Certainly food for thought. And I squatted this morning FWIW.[/quote]

I take it you haven’t seen this post in Beginner’s by the OP:

anyone who’s made any progress knows that rep tempo and set/rep schemes aren’t what gets it done. it’s having progressive training sessions and eating well to support that progress. everything else is a detail that you should worry about if adding more weight to the bar or doing more reps no longer elicits growth.

[quote]fr0IVIan wrote:

[quote]mmatt wrote:
Wouldn’t actually lifting be better than spending days and hours looking for this info?[/quote]

seriously. anyone who’s made real progress doesn’t bother asking these questions. they spend time under the bar.

do you even lift?[/quote]

It’s people like you that make forums like this suck. Clearly the guy has done his research and seems genuinely interested in the actual “science” behind resistance training. Sure, your really great advice of “spend time under the bar” works for your average bro, but believe it or not, there are actually people who care about what is happening when they “spend time under the bar”.

[quote]zonaguy10 wrote:

[quote]fr0IVIan wrote:

[quote]mmatt wrote:
Wouldn’t actually lifting be better than spending days and hours looking for this info?[/quote]

seriously. anyone who’s made real progress doesn’t bother asking these questions. they spend time under the bar.

do you even lift?[/quote]

It’s people like you that make forums like this suck. Clearly the guy has done his research and seems genuinely interested in the actual “science” behind resistance training. Sure, your really great advice of “spend time under the bar” works for your average bro, but believe it or not, there are actually people who care about what is happening when they “spend time under the bar”. [/quote]

funny how that really great advice of “spend time under the bar” also works for guys MUCH BIGGER than the average bro.

[quote]fr0IVIan wrote:

[quote]zonaguy10 wrote:

[quote]fr0IVIan wrote:

[quote]mmatt wrote:
Wouldn’t actually lifting be better than spending days and hours looking for this info?[/quote]

seriously. anyone who’s made real progress doesn’t bother asking these questions. they spend time under the bar.

do you even lift?[/quote]

It’s people like you that make forums like this suck. Clearly the guy has done his research and seems genuinely interested in the actual “science” behind resistance training. Sure, your really great advice of “spend time under the bar” works for your average bro, but believe it or not, there are actually people who care about what is happening when they “spend time under the bar”. [/quote]

funny how that really great advice of “spend time under the bar” also works for guys MUCH BIGGER than the average bro.[/quote]

Fair enough. But what is the point of having a forum like this if the same generic advice is going to be given over and over again? I see it all the time… “lift heavy weights”, “spend time under the bar”, “go to the gym and eat lots of food”. If someone asks the question “How do I get big?”, I guess that would elicit one of those simplistic responses, but when someone asks a legitimate question don’t give simplistic advice that discourages people from wanting to learn more about a subject.

[quote]zonaguy10 wrote:

[quote]fr0IVIan wrote:

[quote]zonaguy10 wrote:

[quote]fr0IVIan wrote:

[quote]mmatt wrote:
Wouldn’t actually lifting be better than spending days and hours looking for this info?[/quote]

seriously. anyone who’s made real progress doesn’t bother asking these questions. they spend time under the bar.

do you even lift?[/quote]

It’s people like you that make forums like this suck. Clearly the guy has done his research and seems genuinely interested in the actual “science” behind resistance training. Sure, your really great advice of “spend time under the bar” works for your average bro, but believe it or not, there are actually people who care about what is happening when they “spend time under the bar”. [/quote]

funny how that really great advice of “spend time under the bar” also works for guys MUCH BIGGER than the average bro.[/quote]

Fair enough. But what is the point of having a forum like this if the same generic advice is going to be given over and over again? I see it all the time… “lift heavy weights”, “spend time under the bar”, “go to the gym and eat lots of food”. If someone asks the question “How do I get big?”, I guess that would elicit one of those simplistic responses, but when someone asks a legitimate question don’t give simplistic advice that discourages people from wanting to learn more about a subject.
[/quote]

when you take into context OP’s other post, he seems like he is trying to write a road map for progress before he’s actually made any. if an advanced trainee had asked the same question, i would’ve stayed out of the thread. something along the lines of “i train X body part this way, i’ve tried it three other ways, increased cals, volume, frequency, recovery, nothing works, will recruiting more HTMUs work for me?” by someone who has already made a lot of progress and is stalling despite his best varied efforts is a valid question.

additionally, even though that same “generic advice” seems to be given over and over again, a lot of posters here seem to avoid it like the plague.

[quote]fr0IVIan wrote:

[quote]zonaguy10 wrote:

[quote]fr0IVIan wrote:

[quote]zonaguy10 wrote:

[quote]fr0IVIan wrote:

[quote]mmatt wrote:
Wouldn’t actually lifting be better than spending days and hours looking for this info?[/quote]

seriously. anyone who’s made real progress doesn’t bother asking these questions. they spend time under the bar.

do you even lift?[/quote]

It’s people like you that make forums like this suck. Clearly the guy has done his research and seems genuinely interested in the actual “science” behind resistance training. Sure, your really great advice of “spend time under the bar” works for your average bro, but believe it or not, there are actually people who care about what is happening when they “spend time under the bar”. [/quote]

funny how that really great advice of “spend time under the bar” also works for guys MUCH BIGGER than the average bro.[/quote]

Fair enough. But what is the point of having a forum like this if the same generic advice is going to be given over and over again? I see it all the time… “lift heavy weights”, “spend time under the bar”, “go to the gym and eat lots of food”. If someone asks the question “How do I get big?”, I guess that would elicit one of those simplistic responses, but when someone asks a legitimate question don’t give simplistic advice that discourages people from wanting to learn more about a subject.
[/quote]

when you take into context OP’s other post, he seems like he is trying to write a road map for progress before he’s actually made any. if an advanced trainee had asked the same question, i would’ve stayed out of the thread. something along the lines of “i train X body part this way, i’ve tried it three other ways, increased cals, volume, frequency, recovery, nothing works, will recruiting more HTMUs work for me?” by someone who has already made a lot of progress and is stalling despite his best varied efforts is a valid question.

additionally, even though that same “generic advice” seems to be given over and over again, a lot of posters here seem to avoid it like the plague.[/quote]

I see what your saying, but there are plenty of very knowledgeable researchers out there who have loads of knowledge on the physiological responses of resistance training that look like they have never touched a weight before in their life. I guess I’m giving the OP the benefit of the doubt and assuming that it is just something he is genuinely interested in.

[quote]zonaguy10 wrote:

[quote]fr0IVIan wrote:

[quote]zonaguy10 wrote:

[quote]fr0IVIan wrote:

[quote]zonaguy10 wrote:

[quote]fr0IVIan wrote:

[quote]mmatt wrote:
Wouldn’t actually lifting be better than spending days and hours looking for this info?[/quote]

seriously. anyone who’s made real progress doesn’t bother asking these questions. they spend time under the bar.

do you even lift?[/quote]

It’s people like you that make forums like this suck. Clearly the guy has done his research and seems genuinely interested in the actual “science” behind resistance training. Sure, your really great advice of “spend time under the bar” works for your average bro, but believe it or not, there are actually people who care about what is happening when they “spend time under the bar”. [/quote]

funny how that really great advice of “spend time under the bar” also works for guys MUCH BIGGER than the average bro.[/quote]

Fair enough. But what is the point of having a forum like this if the same generic advice is going to be given over and over again? I see it all the time… “lift heavy weights”, “spend time under the bar”, “go to the gym and eat lots of food”. If someone asks the question “How do I get big?”, I guess that would elicit one of those simplistic responses, but when someone asks a legitimate question don’t give simplistic advice that discourages people from wanting to learn more about a subject.
[/quote]

when you take into context OP’s other post, he seems like he is trying to write a road map for progress before he’s actually made any. if an advanced trainee had asked the same question, i would’ve stayed out of the thread. something along the lines of “i train X body part this way, i’ve tried it three other ways, increased cals, volume, frequency, recovery, nothing works, will recruiting more HTMUs work for me?” by someone who has already made a lot of progress and is stalling despite his best varied efforts is a valid question.

additionally, even though that same “generic advice” seems to be given over and over again, a lot of posters here seem to avoid it like the plague.[/quote]

I see what your saying, but there are plenty of very knowledgeable researchers out there who have loads of knowledge on the physiological responses of resistance training that look like they have never touched a weight before in their life. I guess I’m giving the OP the benefit of the doubt and assuming that it is just something he is genuinely interested in.[/quote]

if i were posting something like this just for the sake of knowledge or research, i’d say so. from his other post in Beginner’s it seems like he’s interested in it for the sake of training.

[quote]Bull_Scientist wrote:
I don’t know if this question has been answered, but I am confused on how high threshold motor units (HTMUs) get recruited. According to Clarence Bass, Zatsiorsky, and Thomas Kurz, moving slowly in resistance training fatigues the fast-twitch fibers more so than moving fast in resistance training, even if the weight was moderate (6-20RM). However, Chad Waterbury and Christian Thibaudeau seem to say the opposite, in that lifting the weight fast during the concentric phase recruits the fast-twitch fibers more so than lifting the weight slow provided that the weight is at least 60% of your 1RM. I have tried looking through the Tnation Forum as well as researching on other fitness websites for so many days and hours, but I haven’t been able to find any answers. I am very confused and I would very much appreciate, if I could get any clarification on all this. [/quote]

The biggest guys didn’t get that way doing super slow reps in majority. In fact, I doubt it is too far off to say that the majority of the huge guys you have ever seen lift with a faster rep cadence than any skinny super slow rep artist.

Other than that, the threshold refers to the amount of stimulus required to cause the muscles affected by those nerves to fire. This can be done through rep speed, overall weight used and even the length of the training session.

The clueless ones are the ones who would look at a process that complex and reduce it to “slow reps equal more or less recruitment”. The question you asked would take a full class on anatomy and innervation to explain fully…which is why science text books trump internet trainer talk.

Hey Bull_Scientist.

This seems contradictory, but BOTH groups are right. You’re mistakenly confusing fatigue and training effect. Look at what’s being said.

Muscle fiber will always fatigue the quickest when it’s subjected to an opposing stimulus. Fast twitch fiber hates high reps and slow cadence. Likewise, slow twitch fibers hate repeated explosive efforts.

Your calves will fatigue on power cleans well before your thighs give out, and your thighs will give out hiking up a hill well before your calves. Opposing stimuli.

Exactly. Explosive efforts DO recruit more fast twitch fibers, and are the best method of training those fibers.

Keep in mind that fatigue does NOT determine training effect, and is only a subjective phenomenon. If your goal is to train fast twitch muscle, you shouldn’t chase fatigue. A properly designed workout for speed and explosive strength will always leave you feeling fresh and “turned on” afterwards.

Basically:
If you want speed - low reps, fast movement, low to medium fatigue
If you want strength - low to medium reps, slow movement, medium to large fatigue
If you want size - medium to high reps, medium speed, medium to large fatigue,

Keep in mind that you’re not TRYING to move at a certain speed. You just try to get from point A to point B as fast you can, the load will determine your speed.

Basically never utilize isometrics, negatives or muscle contraction at the end of various movements too I guess. I mean, why do that when you can just bounce a bar off your chest and get stronger week over week for another year or so?

Would be a real shame to maximize gains out of the gate.

/sarcasm

“In the bench press, I can use significantly more weight in touch and go style. I never pause benches unless it’s a contest.” - Ed Coan (565 @ 220)

“It’s all about the explosion. There’s a time and place for feeling the muscle but benching 700 isn’t it.” - Jim Williams (725 at SHW)

“The goal is a controlled explosion that launches the bar off your chest.”
and
“Isometrics never worked for me, so I dropped them.” - Bill Seno (585 @ 242)

I’d love to know if you ever broke 300.

/sarcasm

[quote]twiceborn wrote:
“In the bench press, I can use significantly more weight in touch and go style. I never pause benches unless it’s a contest.” - Ed Coan (565 @ 220)

“It’s all about the explosion. There’s a time and place for feeling the muscle but benching 700 isn’t it.” - Jim Williams (725 at SHW)

“The goal is a controlled explosion that launches the bar off your chest.”
and
“Isometrics never worked for me, so I dropped them.” - Bill Seno (585 @ 242)

I’d love to know if you ever broke 300.

/sarcasm[/quote]Yep. Although my comment was a general comment to the thread. Could be mistaken but here in the bb forum, I assumed the curiosity was geared torwards building mass and not powerlifting, in which case isometrics, negatives and slow tempos absolutely work.

Funny, Jim Williams mentions “a time and place to feel the muscle” but not at a power lifting meet. No contest there.

@Houston - I took your comment the wrong way, I apologize. In that context, yep, you’re right. Time under tension still rules for hypertrophy.