Confession: I Went Vegetarian

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
countingbeans wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
but I don’t think it is against nature to be a vegetarian. It’s a choice and it won’t hurt the body.

Please, find me one study, one honest scientific study that shows that the human digestive track is more similar to a sheep than say a dog, and vegetarians will be queens & kings of all the internets.

In a world without supermarkets and supplement companies, yes humans need meat to survive. Therefore, it is natural to eat it. Therefore it hurts the body by KILLING it to not eat meat.

But I forgot, mankind is smarter than evolution.

Silly me. Let me live off of plants that my body can’t digest & load up on Soy & take little pills made in a factory to compensate for the vitamins in MEAT that I can’t get without eating MEAT.

No I didn’t read his blog. I don’t need anymore evidence of why people should eat meat than I already have. I understand basic principles of biology, I don’t need to read a story about someone’s stupidity.

it sure did get your panties in a twist.

and our intestines are a lot longer than a dog’s so that analogy won’t fly either.

we need protein, not necessarily meat.

The only thing stupid is failing to learn.

just get over the tantrum already. It’s not your thing

[/quote]

Many vegan sites recommend supplementing with vitamin B12. So I would say his point about “taking little pills” is pretty valid at least for a vegan (not vegetarian) diet.

As far as the insights of this experiment go, I think Berardi’s experiment was more useful because he actually tried to gain muscle and succeeded to do so. I think you can maintain muscle mass for a month or two with a quite low protein intake as long as you do not reduce your caloric intake drastically. And although I did not get an answer, it is obvious that Chris consumed less calories than normal.

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
and our intestines are a lot longer than a dog’s so that analogy won’t fly either.

we need protein, not necessarily meat.

The only thing stupid is failing to learn.
[/quote]

I recommend you take your own advice in your third statement, so you can understand why your first two, aren’t accurate.

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
and our intestines are a lot longer than a dog’s so that analogy won’t fly either.

we need protein, not necessarily meat.

The only thing stupid is failing to learn.

I recommend you take your own advice in your third statement, so you can understand why your first two, aren’t accurate.[/quote]

I’m always willing to learn which is why I found the blog (which I read, and you didn’t) interesting.

but let’s not turn this into a bashing match between us.

When Chris Colucci looks in he can respond to your freak out if he wants to.

October Girl, you impress me on a weekly basis. Maybe you should point out to the anti veggie folks, that Bill Pearl and his wife have been vegaterians for many years. All he ever did was win Mr Universe 4 times, voted best buislt man in the world, etc.

Maybe you can get some of the doubters to post their recent pictures. Then they can be compared to the veggie Bill Pearl.

I lean heavily toward veggies, just for simple health purposes, and it does work.

why do vegans feel the need to let the world know what they eat? Just curious.

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:

but let’s not turn this into a bashing match between us.

[/quote]

Wasn’t bashing you, nor would I. Sorry if that is the way it came off over text…

I made a statement, you responded, so I did in return, etc. I viewed it as a conversation really.

[quote]philipj wrote:
October Girl, you impress me on a weekly basis. Maybe you should point out to the anti veggie folks, that Bill Pearl and his wife have been vegaterians for many years. All he ever did was win Mr Universe 4 times, voted best buislt man in the world, etc.

Maybe you can get some of the doubters to post their recent pictures. Then they can be compared to the veggie Bill Pearl.

I lean heavily toward veggies, just for simple health purposes, and it does work.[/quote]

Please explain why someone’s size has anything to do with the ability to understand biology?

Thanks.

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:

but let’s not turn this into a bashing match between us.

Wasn’t bashing you, nor would I. Sorry if that is the way it came off over text…

I made a statement, you responded, so I did in return, etc. I viewed it as a conversation really. [/quote]

=) there’s no tone, you are right.

I should not have hijacked Chris Colucci’s thread. He is the better one to respond.

Hey gang, sorry for the delay. I try to avoid turning on the computer during the weekends (an adapted Tim Ferriss tip and a great overall sanity-saver.)

Before I get into my replies, I wanted to address one thing:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
No I didn’t read his blog … I don’t need to read a story about someone’s stupidity.[/quote]

Countingbeans, you raised some interesting points, but since you avoided the basic courtesy of reading the information I presented before calling me stupid, I don’t see the need for me to address any of the issues you brought up. Whatever your intentions were, this comment made you seem ignorant and closed-minded beyond reason.

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
I don’t know why people would venture into such foolishness like this.[/quote]

I did it precisely because many people call it “foolishness” almost out of habit, without giving it more thorough examination.

You’re absolutely wrong.

www.precisionnutrition.com/sexy-vegetarian

“I did end up gaining 7 total pounds, 4.9 lbs being lean body mass, and 2.1 lbs being fat mass … All in all, I?d say a pretty successful month.”

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
Did you notice any mental or mood changes?[/quote]

Nothing particular, although, I was prepping a turkey for dinner one night (for other folks to enjoy, not me obviously) and for a second I had a really weird, unexpected “Aww, poor fella, thanks for the sacrifice of your life so we may survive”-moment. But that didn’t stop me from roasting the sucker and feeding his innards to my cat.

My skin was noticeably drier for the first week or so until I really bumped up my olive oil, nuts, and seeds.

Not sure what this is getting at.

Meh, I’m already signed up for my local CSA farm stand this year (I did it last year as well) to get some diverse, organic veggies. That’s probably about as much as I’ll incorporate into my omni diet.

As for “cleansing”, which I’m not really sure I think is a great idea unless you have specific conditions, I will say…

TMI Warning - Now Entering a TMI-Zone

With the increase in fiber, my “regularity” increased in frequency but decreased in duration. Instead on one movement everyday or so, I was up to two or three, more brief movements per day. That’s as much as I can relate to any “cleansing” effects.

In general though, I don’t see a major need to cycle a vegetarian or vegan diet if that isn’t your primary lifestyle. My main goal, rather than “lure” folks into this way of eating was really just to say “Look, it isn’t an unproductive way to eat if your goal is strength and/or muscle mass.”

It’s just that the Whole Foods supermarket is freaking expensive. Ezekiel bread, high-quality soy products (and no, that’s not an oxymoron), milk alternatives, fruit, unique grains (amaranth, quinoa, etc.), and other staples, was just more than I expected to spend.

[quote]chris666 wrote:
Hm, I do not quite understand why you have not taken before and after measurements that are relevant to us meatheads (like arm size and body fat caliper readings).[/quote]

Because I wasn’t expecting to see any significant changes, I relied only on bodyweight and gym performance.

Yep, around 3,000. The two days I documented in the blog were snapshots of random days, so it’s a decent estimation.

Again, about the same as my omni diet, but I probably ended up with more carbs and fats than usual since I was relying on a lot of grains, beans, and seeds (and I developed an inappropriate love affair with avocados.) However, the higher fiber may’ve “counteracted” some of the higher carbs, so it pretty much evened out.

I’m thinking I might’ve also ended up with more incomplete protein sources than I expected, which reduced my overall protein intake a bit. That’s one of those things that could definitely have benefited from having consulted with someone with more experience, instead of winging it on my own.

While the weight loss was unexpected, my continued strength increases and visual changes would imply that muscle loss was minimal.

But like Berardi said, plant-based eaters usually underestimate their calories. I’m thinking/totally guessing that the foods that make up a plant-based diets may have different thermic effects, compared to the majority of omni foods.

Essentially, if they’re more likely or easier to burn off, they’ll need even more to compensate and grow. But that doesn’t mean it won’t work. It just takes more effort and attention.

[quote]philipj wrote:
Maybe you should point out to the anti veggie folks, that Bill Pearl and his wife have been vegaterians for many years. All he ever did was win Mr Universe 4 times, voted best buislt man in the world, etc.[/quote]

Something interesting I recently learned about Bill Pearl, his doctor advised him to adopt a (lacto-ovo) vegetarian lifestyle because of his high cholesterol. He did, it worked (cholesterol decreased to an acceptable level), and then he won his last Mr. Universe.

But to be clear, he won the first three as an omnivore.

[quote]slimthugger wrote:
why do vegans feel the need to let the world know what they eat? Just curious.[/quote]

Why do powerlifters feel the need to let the world know how deep they squat?

Why do bodybuilders feel the need to let the world know how large their arms are?

It’s just lifters talking about how they go about getting results. Like I said, the full-on confrontational types that shout “MEAT IS MURDER” to anyone holding a steak knife are looked as as fringe loonies even by other vegetarians.

Chris, did you happen to notice when Berardi talks about his abdomen bloats up to almost 12 inches in distention from what is probably allergies to grasses? Sure, you will now say to stay away from such grasses. But by doing so, you have now limited your diet even further in selection and availability.

For those who say protein issues can be addressed while still being vegetarian, the protein you are getting is non-heme, which eventually will lead to anemia. Hemoglobin is needed, and if you don’t think so, ask me to post you a picture of me on insanely low levels of Hemoglobin in my blood, I will resemble something along the lines of an anorexic vampire. You could shave on the reflection off my white skin.

I also believe that to attain the levels of protein you desire, you would need to eat alot of things like beans, which also contain carbs. So as your protein levels go up, so do your carb sources. Do you still think you can be low-carb while eating legumes as your main source of protein? Also consider the fiber content, have you ever seen anyone pig out on legumes? Thought not. They are too filling.

To the mention of Bill Pearl, yes he was built like a beast, yet he is only 1 person who has achieved such success while using the vegetarian protocol. If you can use only 1 person as an example, then you have proven the exception and not the rule.

My only gripe with meat is that it is usually poor quality. The processing that it goes through makes it very fatty, and this is where the vegetarian argument holds any water at all.

So in a nutshell, you run the risk of allergic reactions to grasses, risk having anemia, and bloat up from the high carb intake from trying to obtain your protein needs. Sounds wonderful sign me up.

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Chris, did you happen to notice when Berardi talks about his abdomen bloats up to almost 12 inches in distention from what is probably allergies to grasses? Sure, you will now say to stay away from such grasses. But by doing so, you have now limited your diet even further in selection and availability.[/quote]

Allergies will vary between individuals. I’m not going to place the blame on the diet. Even Berardi said that:

…just like you can be lactose, fructose, and gluten intolerant, you can also be lectin intolerant … My responses to lactose and lectins are very similar. It seems I can handle a small amount of foods containing each of these. However, when I bump up the lactose or the lectin-containing foods, especially in the face of a high calorie diet, offensiveness ensues.

This sounds similar to how I personally handle red meat. In small amounts I’m alright. But any size steak has me headed to the men’s room like a 6-dollar hooker. (eww… bad analogy.)

It’s my understanding that cases of actual anemia in vegetarians are overestimated, and there are many steps one can take to avoid low iron. The easiest of which would be a vegetarian-specific multi formula. Another method would be to increase the availability of non-heme iron, and there are several ways to accomplish that.

This is inaccurate. There are plenty of high-quality, high protein, low carb protein powders available that could be used to increase daily protein intake.

First of all, there’s no reason for just legumes to be a main source of protein. Secondly, no, a low carb diet would be difficult (not impossible) with a vegetarian or vegan lifestyle.

That’s a load of bull. Re-read the section I wrote, “Why Aren’t There More Vegetarian Pro Bodybuilders?”

Sure, Bill Pearl was successful and is one of the biggest “names.” But Hilligenn, Cahling, DeMarco, Dargatz, Mahler, Dos Remedios, Ferruggia, Alvino, and Berardi are all pretty convinced of the diet’s effectiveness.

Not to nitpick, but isn’t this kinda what you just tried to do with Berardi and the grass allergy? It’s an exception and certainly isn’t the “rule” or a common occurrence that people experience with this diet.

Nope, nope, and nope. But we already covered that.

Consider it done. Expect your first shipment of tofu to arrive by Friday.

[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:
Hey gang, sorry for the delay. I try to avoid turning on the computer during the weekends (an adapted Tim Ferriss tip and a great overall sanity-saver.)

Before I get into my replies, I wanted to address one thing:

countingbeans wrote:
No I didn’t read his blog … I don’t need to read a story about someone’s stupidity.

Countingbeans, you raised some interesting points, but since you avoided the basic courtesy of reading the information I presented before calling me stupid, I don’t see the need for me to address any of the issues you brought up. Whatever your intentions were, this comment made you seem ignorant and closed-minded beyond reason.[/quote]

Good response Chris. I was trying to come up with some kind of non-attack response to his blathering but couldn’t come up with one other than how does someone with such a seemingly poor grasp of biology keep telling people to go learn biology.

Good for you man. I did the same thing and drew the same conclusions

Lookit. Shouldn’t the benefits/harms of vegetarianism depend on the person? As a female beginner I sure as heck built muscle on a vegetarian diet. If I make an effort I can get about 100 grams of protein a day, which is roughly where I need to be. I’m sure a large, male bodybuilder needs quite a bit more, and I’ll accept that vegetarianism is a handicap for them. But even there, “handicap” doesn’t necessarily mean “impossible”. I think Chris Colucci showed that pretty decisively.

And anyhow, an ordinary guy or gal who’s vegetarian for ethical reasons might be willing to give up the already small chance of being a competitive bodybuilder or powerlifter. Muscles are great, but for many of us they’re only one part of life.

Your mention of your intolerance to meat is the enough of a reason IMO to try out vegetarianism. Seeing how you mention it causes you GI issues makes more sense than to just try it and see what happens. Would it not be a wiser idea to see why you don’t handle meat well? I am a whiz at GI issues, and I would be willing to bet that your distress with meat is not so much with the meat itself.

The issue of anemia is not as overstated as you think, and certainly not as easy to remedy with supplements. Not to mention the issue with women and the blood loss they have each month. The typical remedy of folic acid is brutal on the stomach, trust me I know personally. Its absorption rate is maybe 10% at best, so you would need to pound the stuff to get what you need, which then just compounds the problem. You are also told to take it some form of protein to help its absorption.

The idea that you have to get the majority of your protein from low-carb powders is already flawed. Note - I said MAJORITY, not additional. If you need 200g of protein and 150g are coming from protein powders, Houston we have problems. Wholesome foods are and always will be better than supplements, hence the word.

You named 9 people (one of which I went to high school with) who might support the notion of vegetarianism. There are a shit ton of people who have come and gone in the decades of strength training community, and you found 9 people?

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Would it not be a wiser idea to see why you don’t handle meat well? I am a whiz at GI issues, and I would be willing to bet that your distress with meat is not so much with the meat itself.[/quote]

Maybe I’m just a much better coach than I am a patient, but for the time being, I’m quite happy simply accepting that meat = badness for my tummy, regardless of the exact reason.

Chicken, pork, and some fish are my main animal sources, and I’m getting along just fine that way. When I get around to it, I may have it looked into medically. I do have a family history of various GI issues, so it isn’t out of the question that something wonky is going on.

As I said, everything I’ve read seems to indicate that anemia isn’t exactly an epidemic sweeping the meatless community, but I’ll look into the issue when I have more time.

I get that. What I’m saying is that a vegetarian diet would be best designed not having any one sole food providing a “majority” of the protein.

I agree, and the same principle goes for omni diets. But for those two months, I got around 40-90 grams of protein per day from various shakes. That’s it.

Again, I agree. Whole foods, in addition to protein powders, would have no problem delivering sufficient protein for hypertrophy.

No, I didn’t.

I named nine people who clearly and absolutely demonstrate that vegetarian/vegan diets can be very effective in building muscle and strength.

If you’re still in contact with your old classmate, I’d be interested in hearing their thoughts on this thread.

Again, re-read the section I wrote, “Why Aren’t There More Vegetarian Pro Bodybuilders?” The guys I named are some of the more notable examples. Vegetarian/vegan bodybuilders are a sub-category of a sub-category, so of course there aren’t going to be an overwhelming number of examples.

However, there are a few thousand members of veganbodybuilding.com who’d agree with what I’m saying. And if we really want to go back into the decades of strength training history, I’d break out some books and do even more research.

However, I feel that my point has been sufficiently made with the examples used so far, and they clearly show than vegetarian/vegan diets can certainly be used to deliver results.