The main reason for the war was slavery. The north was against slavery. That isn’t to say they supported blacks; from my understanding most northerners wanted blacks out of the united states.
There was just no real need for slaves in the north. In contrast slaves were the life blood of the south. Life would become a lot harder for southern whites if slavery was abolished.
Now the north had a history of pushing the south around. And northern power would be consolidated and spread to the western states if Lincoln won. And without slavery the south would be in no position to argue economically. In other words the south could only lose power if Lincoln won. Now if the north kept to itself then this wouldn’t be such a problem. But they insisted on pushing their values upon the south.
The south were at their peak. And they were being pushed around. If I knew that this was my last chance to stand up for myself I would take it. Just as the south did.
And I understand the bitterness towards the north. The north had little to lose by abolishing slavery. The south had everything to lose. Thus understandably they were pissed off with the north telling them what to do. Which is why many southerners who were against slavery fought for the south.
So slavery set everything off but I understand why people claim it wasn’t about slavery. Because really it was a power struggle; An economics problem. The slaves themselves weren’t important to the south. The economic power that the slaves generated was.
On succession:
I don’t think the south had proper representation. Of course I might be murdering the word just a little.
But if there are 5 of us and we get together to share resources etc and agree to solve our disagreements with a vote, and the other 4 form a voting bloc against me and always vote against me then I am not being represented. In fact I am being screwed. So I’m going to leave. And of course the other 4 are going to want to keep me. I’m going to tell them to fuck off. And rightfully so.[/quote]
Interesting and I though that Lincoln followed a misguided mercantilist doctrine that called for as much autarcy as possible and therefore for high tariffs to hinder trade.
Incidentally those high tariffs were mainly paid by the South and spent in the North and it is highly questionable whether they were even constitutional.
[quote]jcoop82 wrote:
I understand this conversation may have been out of genuine curiousity but it stirred a boiling pot. To say that most blacks today aren’t offended is a gross generalization, to say that all those who have the rebel flag stuff are just proud of the south is also a gross generalization. This whole fuckin thing works both ways…there’s people who wear their rebel flag shit who are trying to push buttons but there are also those who may in fact support Jeffersonian principles and feel the rebelious nature is what this country needed then and needs today. Just as there are people who wear their “x” shirts who have similiar views just applied to a different topic. It’s all stupid conversation, to generalize the rebel flag wavers as a beacon of “hillbillyism” is one of the most ignorant statements I’ve read in a while.
There are racist conotations associated with the flag and with the X, but to generalize both of them is generally stupid.[/quote]
THIS! About sums it up. It’s in the eye of the beholder and displayer. Simple. End of story. It’s “meaning” lies simply in the motivation of the person making the display. It’s “meaning” likewise lies simply in the emotional reaction of those viewing it. I’m from the Northeast but travel to the South fairly frequently. What I have noticed “generally” is that Northern blacks are more offended by it than Southern blacks - in my experience. It is a symbol of the South and the South is different than other parts of our Country. The South has a unique history and culture. And if it simply represented racism, which it does not under any reasonable analysis, then more than one Southern state flag would not be modeled from the confederate flag and tolerated.
Yes, there seems to be a deep division over the interpretation of the flag - but that’s all it is and it’s pretty meaningless. It certainly doesn’t help when hate groups or those that hate adopt that symbol to signfiy their mistaken believes, but even the nazi swastika has a much more benign history dating back to our neolithic period.
Whatever the intent, I support anyone’s right to display that which they desire, unless they are overtly trying to antagonize me. A passive display of a symbol, for whatever reason, shouldn’t get anyone’s blood pressure rising.
[quote]Irish Pride wrote:
So I was just at Sheetz getting my late night $4 sub and there was a guy there in full cowboy gear including a confederate flag belt --note that I live right outside Pittsburgh.
So that got me thinking what other people think about the confederate flag and its meaning. Does it offend you?
I personally think its just another racist symbol. Im a strong believer in freedom of speech but I still feel that the confederate flag is a pretty blatant symbol of bigotry. Now I have always lived in Pittsburgh so I am obviously biased and ignorant of the “southern pride” connotation but Im just stating my view.[/quote]
Symbols mean different things to different people – kind of like words.
When I was younger I was taught that it was a racist symbol. I later learned that there are many who do not view it as that but rather as a symbol of self determination. To many it is just a symbol of Southern Independence.
[quote]Papa Nick wrote:
If people who display rebel flags are racist, does this mean people who wear apparel that says “thug life” mug people and steal purses from old ladies?.. isnt that what a thug is?[/quote]
no. that makes them wannabes. and we’re surrounded by wannabes of all kind.
Well I am offended when people have Irish or Italian flags, I mean at least the confederate flag is an american symbol. I thought in this country we were all americans and some person using Irish pride as a sign in is offended by a sign of ancestory or political idea.
It’s a Racist symbol. All the Southern states have their own flag, you can display that to go messing yourself on some Southern pride.
The flag might have meant something other than “I’m a Racist” from 1861-1865. But now it’s a special brand of person who wants to display it, to be a racist, to be anti-American, and to embody the hypocrisy to turn around and tell the rest of us that’s not what it means.
I don’t think the south had proper representation. Of course I might be murdering the word just a little.
But if there are 5 of us and we get together to share resources etc and agree to solve our disagreements with a vote, and the other 4 form a voting bloc against me and always vote against me then I am not being represented. In fact I am being screwed. So I’m going to leave. And of course the other 4 are going to want to keep me. I’m going to tell them to fuck off. And rightfully so.[/quote]
Someone gets it.
Mob rule is not “fair” unless you are part of the mob.
I am from the south and will say the stars and bars is a symbol of racism. Maybe at one time it meant something different but as soon as the Klan started to embrace and use it for propaganda it was forever changed. What’s weird is as a kid growing up I never really saw the flag or heard the N word until I spent time in the north, PA to be exact. It’s funny how they can be racist up their when in some small towns there are no black people at all. If they came down south and pretended like they were some rebel flag wavin bad asses people would be like what the hell u doin yankee.
[quote]sevenmoist wrote:
I am from the south and will say the stars and bars is a symbol of racism. Maybe at one time it meant something different but as soon as the Klan started to embrace and use it for propaganda it was forever changed. What’s weird is as a kid growing up I never really saw the flag or heard the N word until I spent time in the north, PA to be exact. It’s funny how they can be racist up their when in some small towns there are no black people at all. If they came down south and pretended like they were some rebel flag wavin bad asses people would be like what the hell u doin yankee.[/quote]
Florida isn’t the south. Sorry.
I’m sure the hammer of Thor, the letter x, and the Irish harp are all also racist symbols?
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
sevenmoist wrote:
I am from the south and will say the stars and bars is a symbol of racism. Maybe at one time it meant something different but as soon as the Klan started to embrace and use it for propaganda it was forever changed. What’s weird is as a kid growing up I never really saw the flag or heard the N word until I spent time in the north, PA to be exact. It’s funny how they can be racist up their when in some small towns there are no black people at all. If they came down south and pretended like they were some rebel flag wavin bad asses people would be like what the hell u doin yankee.
Florida isn’t the south. Sorry.
I’m sure the hammer of Thor, the letter x, and the Irish harp are all also racist symbols?[/quote]
I wasn’t raised in Fla I am talking N.C. but I would say North Fla is the south.
[quote]DixiesFinest wrote:
Riddle me this, why is it ok, justified even, for thirteen colonies to violently break away from their rightful Monarch, but not ok for 11 states to leave a Union they voluntarily joined?[/quote]
Because in the former case, there was no method for redress or succession. The Colonies were a possession of the King and therefore their place in the Empire was for him alone to decide. In the latter case it is clearly spelled out in the Constitution: introduce a bill into Congress, pass it like any other and out you go.
Mr. Lincoln – who was a lawyer – was correct in his reading. And I am a Southerner. The issue was therefore if states have a right to abrogate due process of law when it suits them. No.
[quote]Irish Pride wrote:
So I was just at Sheetz getting my late night $4 sub and there was a guy there in full cowboy gear including a confederate flag belt --note that I live right outside Pittsburgh.
So that got me thinking what other people think about the confederate flag and its meaning. Does it offend you?
I personally think its just another racist symbol. Im a strong believer in freedom of speech but I still feel that the confederate flag is a pretty blatant symbol of bigotry. Now I have always lived in Pittsburgh so I am obviously biased and ignorant of the “southern pride” connotation but Im just stating my view.[/quote]
It is illegal to display the Confederate flag (the “Stars and Bars”) and I doubt seriously you’ve ever seen one. You are talking about the Confederate battle standard, which was carried by the army. There is a passable description of the various flags in
Enjoy.
(Sorry if someone beat me to this. I just and ploughing through this thread.)
I am more politically sympathetic to the constitutional interpretation (and hence more limited role of federal authority) of the like of Madison as opposed to someone like Hamilton.
There is much to address in your lengthy list of errors, but a foundational point you should be aware of - Madison opposed secession.
The Civil War was not a “big government” versus “small government” fight - as has been repeated over and over, the Slave Power wanted to use extensive federal powers to expand slavery, at the expense of individual states deciding for themselves. This was their aim in 1860 - [b]compel[/b] states by way of [b]federal law[/b] to accept slavery, even if [b]they didn’t want to[/b].
This historical fact - which has never been addressed by the worthless brigade of half-literate neo-Confederates round these parts - cannot be ignored. Try addressing it rather than clinging to your convenient fiction.[/quote]
I wonder if any of these people have taken the time to read the Constitution of the Confederate States? Within it, not only is there at least 5 different references to slavery as the reason for the formation of the Confederacy and how it is supposed to be governed, but also the rights of the member states were even more restricted than they were under the Union. Reading it may open a few eyes.