[quote]SimonSays wrote:
Why do Americans think MORE guns will solve violence issues?[/quote]
Why do subjects of the crown continue to fail to mind their own damn business regarding our domestic issues?
Is there a reason you couldn’t pass this thread up and leave it to the citizens of our republic to debate?
mike
[quote]dhickey wrote:
What’s sad here is that teachers find it necessary to protect their students. As much money as our gov’t takes and spends they fall short on one of their primary responsibilities, protecting us. American’s have the right to protect themselves but, considering the money we give them, we should not be required to protect ourselves so often. 40% of my salary and I still have to worry about my kids being killed in a classroom. Brilliant.[/quote]
I think it’s more to protect themselves AND the students.
Also, while 40 pecent of your salary is going towards school…know that teachers make very little money and it’s a very very difficult job.
[quote]Mikeyali wrote:
SimonSays wrote:
Why do Americans think MORE guns will solve violence issues?
Why do subjects of the crown continue to fail to mind their own damn business regarding our domestic issues?
Is there a reason you couldn’t pass this thread up and leave it to the citizens of our republic to debate?
mike[/quote]
… that’s a pretty unrelated issue. Personally I care little for the monarchy back in England.
But it IS my business. Whether the world likes it or not, American culture has a massive influence around the globe.
[quote]blazindave wrote:
NO REALLY?
I guess that’s normal considering your gun laws. Duh.
Yet! Guns don’t kill people, people kill people.
If i want to kill you, then ill find some other means. Like a knife for example, or a snake in your bed 
Guns just level the battlefield tremendously. [/quote]
Ha…
Americans have almost 3 x the number of murders per capita.
2.85 to be exact.
[quote]SimonSays wrote:
Mikeyali wrote:
SimonSays wrote:
Why do Americans think MORE guns will solve violence issues?
Why do subjects of the crown continue to fail to mind their own damn business regarding our domestic issues?
Is there a reason you couldn’t pass this thread up and leave it to the citizens of our republic to debate?
mike
… that’s a pretty unrelated issue. Personally I care little for the monarchy back in England.
But it IS my business. Whether the world likes it or not, American culture has a massive influence around the globe.
blazindave wrote:
NO REALLY?
I guess that’s normal considering your gun laws. Duh.
Yet! Guns don’t kill people, people kill people.
If i want to kill you, then ill find some other means. Like a knife for example, or a snake in your bed
Guns just level the battlefield tremendously.
Ha…
Americans have almost 3 x the number of murders per capita.
2.85 to be exact.[/quote]
They also have 14 times as many people as australia.
USA is barely any larger than australia as well.
It also has “more poor people” and larger minorities. This is all cause for more crime.
Guns are hardly the reason.
"Historically, Australia has had relatively low levels of violent crime. Overall levels of homicide and suicide have remained relatively static for several decades, while the proportion of these crimes that involved firearms has consistently declined since the early 1980s. Between 1991 and 2001, the number of firearm related deaths in Australia declined 47%.[14]
In 1997, the Prime Minister appointed the Australian Institute of Criminology to analyse of the effects of the gun buyback. Since then, a number of papers have been published reporting trends and statistics around legal gun ownership and gun crime, which they have found to be mostly related to illegally-held firearms"
ILLEGALLY HELD FIREARMS. Exactly what we’ve been argueing. Don’t punish the citizen because of the criminal.
"In the year 2002/2003, over 85% of firearms used to commit murder were unregistered.[28] In 1997-1999, more than 80% of the handguns confiscated were never legally purchased or registered in Australia.[15] Knives are used up to 3 times as often as firearms in robberies.[29] The majority of firearm related deaths involved the use of hunting rifles, with their share being most pronounced in firearm suicides.[14]
According to the Australian Bureau of Statistics [2], in 1985-2000, 78% of firearm deaths in Australia were suicides, yet only 5% of suicides involved firearms. The suicide rate has only fluctuated, not statistically changed, from 1993-2003. However, recent published studies such as www.gunfacts.be [3] indicate an important increase of the suicide rate for adult men, in the 3 years after the introduction of the strict gun legislation. In the 5 years following the introduction of the strict gun legislation, 427 extra suicides took place compared to the suicide rate of 1996."
[quote]NateOrade wrote:
AndyG wrote:
The other Australian wasn’t particularly impressed with the argument that if everyone has guns you can just shoot back.
Americans have an ingrained attitude that the righteous always wins and that grannys are going to blow away hardened crims.
Of course the idea of making guns less available to crims has no merit. They always make themselves known so that everyone else has a chance to shoot first.
I have a three year old. It’s very difficult to take away her toys too.
Funny how you make up crap while when presented with FACTS in the other thread…you don’t reply. It was shown that areas with less scrict gun control have less gun violence. It was shown this was true even in cities. It was shown that INCREASING gun control in cities INCREASES gun violence.
When this was shown you said nothing.
Like I said there. Read the statistics on gun crime and let the adults speak.[/quote]
Since your foolish country has been awash with firearms I daresay there will be a lag between gun control measures and the effect being seen.
Criminal statistics are in general notoriously unreliable. Gun mad internet people even more so. Sites like gun facts are hardly going to be independent. One exception is the number of homicides. In Australia we generally figure out why someone dies. You guys probably don’t so the homicide rate is probably even greater than I quoted.
I might consider the argument that gun control is impossible now but could have been the answer 50 years ago before there were as many about as there are now.
I can walk down any street in Australia and feel safe. How about you?
“per capita” look that up.
[quote]SimonSays wrote:
Mikeyali wrote:
SimonSays wrote:
Why do Americans think MORE guns will solve violence issues?
Why do subjects of the crown continue to fail to mind their own damn business regarding our domestic issues?
Is there a reason you couldn’t pass this thread up and leave it to the citizens of our republic to debate?
mike
… that’s a pretty unrelated issue. Personally I care little for the monarchy back in England.[/quote]
Funny, we didn’t care much for the monarchy back in England either. So we picked up our muskets from off the mantle and … oh wait, I guess you guys can’t do that now can you?
mike
Typical American attitude? Don’t like something so you blow it up? 
Even if we did declare independence I doubt we would have to go to war over it.
[quote]AndyG wrote:
Criminal statistics are in general notoriously unreliable. Gun mad internet people even more so. Sites like gun facts are hardly going to be independent. [/quote]
Of course they are. Do you think the numbers coming out of the Brady Campaign are reliable? Fortunately the number of murders has no bearing on the right of non-violent people such as myself to carry a firearm to protect myself, my society, and those that I love. [quote]
I might consider the argument that gun control is impossible now but could have been the answer 50 years ago before there were as many about as there are now.[/quote]
First, if you’re willing to consider the fact that gun control is impossible now, then why are you attempted to argue the point? If you do think gun control is possible then you sir are a fool. Make it illegal to own a gun? That’s like forcing everyone to be gay. More chicks for me. I’ll make a gun by week’s end; you cannot destroy knowledge except by apathy. [quote]
I can walk down any street in Australia and feel safe. How about you?
[/quote]
I really doubt you would feel safe walking down ANY street in Australia. I’ve been to some pretty rough neighborhoods over there. I wonder how safe Ashleigh Mahon felt prior to being murdered (with a gun) in Perth? Since we are talking guns here, would you feel safe diddy-bopping through Compton if you knew that there were no guns? Regardless, since when did anyone care what your feelings were? There is a difference between FEELING safe and BEING safe.
But hey, let’s talk feelings. I feel safe when I go to work unarmed. I feel MORE safe when I come home and am armed. Why do your feelings matter and not mine?
mike
[quote]SimonSays wrote:
Typical American attitude? Don’t like something so you blow it up?
Even if we did declare independence I doubt we would have to go to war over it.[/quote]
Certainly true, but what will you do when your problem isn’t some bloated welfare baby thousands of miles away, but rather your own parliament?
mike
[quote]SimonSays wrote:
SimonSays wrote:
Ha…
Americans have almost 3 x the number of murders per capita.
2.85 to be exact.
blazindave wrote:
They also have 14 times as many people as australia.
USA is barely any larger than australia as well.
“per capita” look that up.
[/quote]
You completely misunderstood my point.
There is a conflict of ideas, culture and status in the united states on a level that australia cannot comprehend.
Add to the fact that all these factors are in close proximity fuels the fire. THAT will be a cause for crime, NOT guns.
[quote]SimonSays wrote:
Typical American attitude? Don’t like something so you blow it up?
Even if we did declare independence I doubt we would have to go to war over it.[/quote]
Yea, NOW you wouldn’t but back then you would have.
Now if you declare independence and the united kingdom tells you to fuck off and sends troops to your lovely country to keep the riots down. Then what?
[quote]SimonSays wrote:
All good points.
But comparing America and Australia, Our gun related crime is very low. Guns are very hard to come by even for criminals and our police are just recently considering changing from 6 shot revolvers to semi-auto 9mm.
Wouldn’t the best approach be to limit the amount of firearms within a country?[/quote]
Wouldn’t it be better to limit fatty foods because the y cause heart attacks?
Limit weight training because it causes high blood pressure?
[quote]SimonSays wrote:
SimonSays wrote:
Ha…
Americans have almost 3 x the number of murders per capita.
2.85 to be exact.
blazindave wrote:
They also have 14 times as many people as australia.
USA is barely any larger than australia as well.
“per capita” look that up.
[/quote]
Hew clearly made the point that the US is far more densely populated, has a wider range of various ethnic minorities and disparity between rich and poor. All this contributes to the way people interact here.
And don’t pretend Australia is perfectly safe. We have all read and discussed the many problems you fellows are having there integrating your immigrants and the violence involved.
[quote]SimonSays wrote:
Why do Americans think MORE guns will solve violence issues?[/quote]
Because there is solid statistical data that suggest that they do?
[quote]NateOrade wrote:
SimonSays look up the Heller DC Gun Case thread where another Australian (what is it with you guys? heh heh) [/quote]
Not all of us are pro gun restrictions
[quote]AndyG wrote:
I can walk down any street in Australia and feel safe. How about you?
[/quote]
Really?
What about Lakemba or Redfurn after dark.
[quote]streamline wrote:
God didn’t make mankind equal, Smith & Weston did![/quote]
Common people had no voice in government until they could fight back. The handgun is the greatest liberating device ever invented.
Incidentally, I’ve always wondered: how were the majority of Aborigines in Australia killed?
Were they poisoned? Strangled? Stabbed? Asphyxiated with pillows?
I mean, we killed a lot of the aboriginal peoples on our continent with smallpox-contaminated blankets, but for the most part it was good old fashioned shootin’.
But I guess you blokes didn’t do that, not having been a “gun culture.”
I’m kidding, of course. The firearm was just as instrumental in the eradication of the Aborigine as is was in the extermination of the Indian.
This does bring up another point: if the Aborigines (or the Indians, for that matter) were equivalently armed and trained in warfare as the European settlers and soldiers, would it have been as easy to tyrannize them, resettle them on crap land, or systematically wipe them out (as on Tasmania, where, ironically, your little gun-control saga began)?
If your answer is “no”, then you might begin to understand why Americans may not favor disarmament.
[quote]SimonSays wrote:
All good points.
But comparing America and Australia, Our gun related crime is very low. Guns are very hard to come by even for criminals and our police are just recently considering changing from 6 shot revolvers to semi-auto 9mm.
Wouldn’t the best approach be to limit the amount of firearms within a country?[/quote]
Ok, I got a bit bored, so I did a bit of research using easily accessible statistics from gov’t census. I’m lazy so I didn’t do too much work and I’m certain you could find much updated statistics. The specific yearly details aren’t what I’m interested in. It’s the overall picture you seem to have.
You guys have about the TOTAL population that Texas does. Slightly less, in fact. You also have much less of a heterogeneous culture than we do, in view of the fact that our states are very widely different in socio-economic makeup.
I used Texas to compare Australia against because 1) Texas has very very relaxed gun laws. 2) Texas has a comparable, though slightly higher population that Australia 3) When people think “America” they think “cowboy”.
You don’t get much more cowboy than Texas. It in fact superficially matches the preconceived notions that many people from all other countries have about us Americans.
However, Rainjack, this is not a dig at Texas. 
I like Texas quite a bit actually. 4) The overall attitude and outlook of these two states/countries–both are very traditionally individualistic and independent by virtue of their history and landscape.
Compared, say to a more collectivist culture like some in western/central Europe. Also, compared to say, Maine or something where the wide open landscape does not encourage rough individualism. Population densities are similar-ish as well…both are large with a whole lot of open land around, more rural-ish areas.
Texas vs. Australia 1996
Total Pop.
19,340,342 vs. 17,267,825
Registered Gun Owners
Australia approx. 750,000 guns (2007 number 
), Texas has about …I don’t know. Texans are NOT required to register their guns. a 2001 poll from the Behavioral Risk Factor Surveillance Survey found 36% of respondents had at least 1 gun in the household.
Jim Brown --the legislative director for the Texas State Rifle Association–said “If you take 17 million people in Texas and multiply that by about 3, you’ve probably got that many guns”.
He based his estimate on his experience. Just for the record that is approximately 51 million guns. That’s probably high. But a more reasonable estimate would be 7.5-13 million guns.
Gun deaths, all-inclusive (suicide, accidental, training related, homicide, etc.)
13.52 people per 100,000 vs. 3.03 people per 100,000
but Hold the Phones! That’s not a big deal, and here’s why: having more guns in total use means more accidental deaths, all things being equal.
GUN HOMICIDES
only 5.36 people died per 100,000 people for Texas in 1996, with an ASTRONOMICAL wealth of guns readily bought and sold. And one of the most relaxed gun-law codes in the US. And concealed carry.
yeah, sure, that’s higher than your total gun deaths in Australia. But to put it mildly, I’m pretty sure the amount of guns available to civilians in Texas alone vastly outnumbers the total amount of gun permits you Aussies have held by the citizens by about a factor of 10.
If on a linear scale, that would necessitate a 10 fold increase in gun deaths/homicide based solely on the number of gun owners. This is obviously not the case, so one could conceivably argue that Texans are safer gun owners than Aussies.
I won’t do that, and I wouldn’t agree with arguing that at all, but there you go.
considering Texas could arm it’s own civilian Army with guns strictly sold commercially, I’d say that’s acceptable. 2.3 more people. Fine by me. To me this indicates widespread responsible gun use.
Regardless, I’m sure you can see now that things are not quite as black and white as many would like them to be regarding guns being available to the public. States like New York and places like Washington D.C. have enormous problems with gun crime, much higher than these statistics.
They also have a) different cultures of people, b) much much more restrictive gun laws c) different attitudes of the people.