T Nation

Compounded Test Question


#1

If on 85mg a day test creme which equals close to 600mg a week, does that equal 3ml's of test cyp at 200mg's every ml, or am i missing something in that conversion...


#2

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#3

10% is when things work right.

Those who are hypothyroid are very often non absorbers.

Some absorb well in the beginning. But the skin changes with the testosterone and can then not absorb. They can have T level lab work that is very good, then they start to feel like its not working anymore... and lab results confirm that.

You did not post your age or anything useful. If your skin is aged, thin, crinkly or fragile, you might see thickness and elasticity return in six weeks.

Injected T can be a lot cheaper than transdermals!!!

Those who train, sweat and shower are not good candidates for transdermals.

E levels can rise more with transdermals than with injections. If T levels are good and stay there, you can expect to loose the benefits from elevated E2. Get E2 tested and use an AI, arimidex/anastrozole specifically. The typical starting dose is 1mg/wk. Aim for serum E2 in the low twenties (0-53 range or <54 range)

If the TRT is effective, your HPTA will shutdown, you loose T production and most of your pregnenolone production. Your testes and scrotum will shrink. A few also feel a 24x7 ache in there testes. The only delivery mechanism for HCG is injections.

DHEA levels are underminded from the drop in pregnenolne. Injecting HCG will keep the testes working [if they area able]. But its seems crazy to do injections to keep the testes working and also use a transdermal to avoid injecting.

In my view of things, T, AI and HCG are the three legs of the tripod. You need them all. Many doctors do not understand these issues and may think that AI and/or HCG is insane... because they simply do not know.

The right doctor is the key to success. Many have trained their doctors and many many doctors will not accept a patient telling them anything, their egos are threatened.


#4

10% at best...that's not good news. My testosterone (on a scale of 8.5 - 54) was 11.3 or so and I'm hypothyroidic, too. My doctor has me on 1mg test compound 2x daily and a T3 pill in the AM. So, it sounds like my $75 for the test compound was wasted, eh? The miniscule amount actually absorbed - if any - won't have an impact. Or will the T3 medicine help?

Also, I'm 6'7 and 290lbs, mid-to-high teens bodyfat. Is there even enough T in the compund to have an effect regardless of T3 levels?

Thanks,
Mike


#5

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#6

I'm not a doctor by any stretch - but it doesn't look like you are getting enough testosterone to offset the catabolic effect of the T3.

T3 will increase metabolism - but when it does, it makes no distinction between LBM and BF.

In other words being on T3 will cause you to lose weight, but without the presence of exogenous test - you will very likely not drop in BF%. You will just be a smaller version of the body you currently have.

Exogenous test will "spare" the muscle. But at only 60mg/week, I don't know if that is enough to stave off catabolism.

It sounds like your doctor needs to read up on what he is giving you.

But I could be wrong.


#7

hmmm....yeah. Your responses sure aren't making me feel better. Granted, my doctor did say that she was starting low to see how I respond and to play it safe until then, but a max 10% of 2mg/day is virtually nothing. I'd love to hear what the good doc KSMan thinks about this.

For more background info, in addition to low test and T3, I also have low levels of Vit D and both excitatory and inhibitory neurotransmitters. For this, I'm taking vitamin D3 (2000 iu daily), L-tyrosine in the AM, and 5-HTP in the PM, respectively. (this is all a result of mold poisoning 6 years ago)

So far, the feedback I've gotten and the info from KSMan's earlier post in this thread is prompting me to ask my doctor for an injectable, possibly with more mg/ml than the compund I've got now. I mean, it's been 2 weeks and I feel no difference. My doc says I should start to feel better in 4 more weeks, though. Maybe I just need to be patient?

Thanks for the info Rainjack and Chushin.

Mike


#8

With 100mg of test ester, the yield of testosterone after the body strops off the ester group is near 70mg. That is 10mg/day. Injecting once a week would be all over the map. 28mg EOD would be close to 10mg ED.


#9

Two weeks would not be long enough to see what will happen, often 4-6 weeks for some. Yes you can feel the T in the brain, but other changes require cellular responses to the activated T receptors and aggregate changes in tissue and organs. And then without an AI, that can all go down the drain. When you change hormone status, the brain makes aggregate changes and then your thought and habits of thought patterns can change... which takes time.

That is often not an enough vitamin D. For someone with 'white - non pigmented skin) and not heavily tanned. Full body exposure to 20 minutes of mid day skin in the summer can lead to 10,000 of vitamin D production in the skin. Lack of V-D in northern latitudes is responsible for more cancers, more flu problems, and auto immune problems like MS and RA. This can be a huge problem for folks who are dark skinned. Vitamin D is a hormone, not a vitamin.

Is is steroid derived (from cholesterol). The skin will take the process through all of the states to 1,25D. Another major path is a cascade through both the liver and then the kidneys. And there is now known to be local conversion of D2 and D3 into the needed 1.25D active form in different organs for local use and not systemic production. The best article that I have ever read is in the current (Nov 2007) edition of Scientific American, Pgs 62-72. V-D also inhibits inflammatory responses which can produce.

Sam-e can be a useful addition to improve the balance of neural transmitters. A lack of pregnenolone can mess up brain-mental functions. When TRT shuts down the HPTA, the tests shut down (which hCG can prevent). Much of a male's pregnenolone is produced in the testes. So that can be lost when the testes shutdown. Pregnenolone is locally converted in the brain into neural steroids. Loss of preg can have many negative effects. DHEA has similar implications. With age, preg, DHEA and T decline as E2 and cholesterol increase. With TRT, cholesterol can go down by major amounts (270-->200 in my case) and E2 will increase and can block most or all of the benefits that you can feel unless an AI is used.


#10

thanks for the detailed reply, KSman.

I finally found the Scientific American issue you mentioned. The Vitamin D article was very interesting. I did increase my intake to 3000 iu because of it and got my wife to start with 1000 iu (she's tiny). I'll hold there and wait to see what the bloodwork shows in 4.5 more months (that'll be the 6 month mark). I don't want to go too high in case my doctor asks about it. I don't imagine any doctor would be pleased if their patients take double the amount he/she recommended.

I did some research and found that, in general, the dose range for testosterone creams and gels is 25 to 50mg per day, where it's understood that only 10% will be absorbed at best. The amount prescribed to me by my doctor (2mg/day) is roughly equivalent to what is given to 60+ yr old women to restore libido. (Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism June 1999: 84: p. 1886) So, since it's time to refill the script, I emailed my doctor with my findings to see if she'll increase the concentration. Besides, it's been over 3 weeks and I feel absolutely no difference. Not with energy, libido, etc.

Thanks again,
Mike


#11

This 1 hour presentation on V-D is worth watching:

http://wildhorse.insinc.com/directms13oct2005/softvnetplayer.htm

Is vitamin D toxic? 4,000iu is safe. 1,000 iu leads to inadequate results.
What vitamin D status is optimal?
What are the genetic and Darwinian implications?
Vitamin D decreases cancers, lung, breast, ovary, prostate, colon
Vitamin D status affects 5 year survivability of cancer patients.
Vitamin D status decreases in northern zones
Less exposure all year
Less UV levels
Skin covered when outdoors to protect from cold temperatures
Cancer rates increase with distance from the equator via skin UV exposure
MS rates follow the same patterns as the cancer data.
MS flare-ups follow season patters that track skin UV exposure (time delay for D3 stores depletion)
Hip bone density increases with vitamin D status
Vitamin D3 has a very long half life in the body, the body makes 1,25D as required
1,25D is a hormone made from D3
Older people spend less time exposed to sunshine, zero if frail

With IE7 and Firefox, use [F11] to toggle full screen.


#12

Enjoying this thread within a thread re Vit D. Long before I came to recognize and greatly dislike the "steroid-phobic Repullicans", I recognized and hated the "sun-phobic know-it-all Dermatologists." 20-30 min. sun exposure has also been shown to help in depression, and I have probably migrated closer and closer to the equator as a result.


#13

Interesting presentation. Given that I live in Boston and that my blood Vit D level was only 21.7 ng/mL, I'm glad that I increased my supplementation to 3000IU daily. According to the presentation, subjects with a starting level similar to my own ended up with still insufficient blood levels after taking 2000IU daily. I may increase to 4000IU starting next month.

Regarding the testosterone cream, my doc did go up to 25mg/day. It's only been 4 days and I've already noticed a difference. Not much of one, because I've been fighting a cold for over a week, but I've had morning wood for the last 3 days. That hasn't happened in a few years. At 25 mg/day, I still shouldn't have to worry about finding an AI, right?

Thanks again,
Mike


#14

Don't count on it. Individual E2 response is highly variable. If you feel good, then wait until your T dose is figured out, then test. Meanwhile if you start to loose the libido and sensitivity, you should start AI. Might be good to have on hand. I have this expectation that any effective TRT dose will lead to E2 levels that are not near optimal.


#15

Thanks. I'll keep an eye on E2 and pregnenolone levels when I get my next bloodwork. I'll also ask about AI and hCG plans.

Do you have a reference as to why a topical T is more likely to convert to estrogen than an injectable? Which T is generally used in TRT, a single flavor like cypionate or a blend like sustanon?

Sorry for so many questions.

Thanks again,
Mike


#16

From KSman's post above:

"In my view of things, T, AI and HCG are the three legs of the tripod. You need them all. Many doctors do not understand these issues and may think that AI and/or HCG is insane... because they simply do not know."

You are putting this very nicely, KSman. They don't know AND they don't want to know. I have presented stuff out of the Journal of Endocrinology and Metabolism to doctors. They glance at it, then carry on with exactly what they were doing before (and telling me I'm a layman/idiot.) They mostly just wanted money; I guess the payment on the 2nd home or payment on their daughter's college tuition was due.


#17

To answer one of my questions (in case anyone else is looking for the answer), the most common form of testosterone in a topical cream for TRT is propionate. Apparently, this is due to the shorter ester and fewer side effects than the rest of the commom testosterones. A nice benefit of the shorter ester is that, if the user experiences unwanted side-effects, it is out of the system very quickly.


#18

DLPA is a neurotransmitter precursor, that also extends the life of the body's natural endorphines. My doctor tells me to use it to make my electronics work more efficiently. It may help your condition too. The "RDA" is up to 2.2 grams/day (I take 2.5g) It will also support your adrenal system to make everything work faster too. Besides, 100 500mg capsules cost around $5.00.
Maybe this info will help...