T Nation

Complications (Gyno) on 1st T Cycle


#1

Hey All

I’ll keep it simple:

  1. 1st cycle
  2. 500mg/week Test Cyp
  3. Didn’t start an AI (adex) until week 4 (.5mg e3d)
  4. Gyno
  5. Started Nolva @ 10mg ed (2 days in)
  6. Lowered T dose to 250mg/week for now

Lumps now forming around left nip, pea sized

AI is branded “AHI” right on the pill indicating anastrozole, from local TRT clinic through a friend so I really don’t think bum like some friends think

*Should this gyno reverse itself with the nolva introduced? Was painful and sensitive at first, how the nips are just drooping and growing more and more each day. Skin has been RED all day since I started this cycle, hot flashes as well seems like estrogen has just gotten super high.

*Would a TRT clinic be able to help with this if I threw money at it? They can’t script nolva so not sure what they’d be able to do to help with gyno


#2

running nolva at 10mg is not going to do anything , best thing to do is get letrozole and do a reverse protocol, letro is the most powerful thing you can use for gyno, if you do it right you will get rid of it in 8 weeks also your gains will suffer while doing letro but hey atleast you wont have to pay 3,000-5000$ for surgery right?


#3

Was considering it, friends have advised against letro since so easy to crash estrogen and really feel it.

If I can get my hands on some, what is a dosage you’d recommend?


#4

continue taking the nolva @ 20mg a day - this will bind to the receptors and hopefully prevent any further gyno development.

If you can get letro you can then use this to bring estrogen down but if not anastrozole can get the job done


#5

Running letro to reverse gyno:
I am going to go over the three different scenarios which people could fit into. Remember regardless of what scenario you are in it is important that you begin taking the letro ASAP.

Already using an anti-e aside from letro.
Already using letro @ a dose of .25mg or .50mg ED.
Not running any estrogen protection.
1.
Day 1: .25mg Letro + anti-e*
Day 2: .50mg Letro
Day 3: 1.0mg Letro
Day 4: 1.5mg Letro
Day 5: 2.0mg Letro
Day 6: 2.5mg Letro **

Day 1: .50mg Letro
Day 2: 1.0mg Letro
Day 3: 1.5mg Letro
Day 4: 2.0mg Letro
Day 5: 2.5mg Letro **

Day 1: .50mg Letro
Day 2: 1.0mg Letro
Day 3: 1.5mg Letro
Day 4: 2.0mg Letro
Day 5: 2.5mg Letro **

*Regardless of the anti-e you are using it is important to still use it for the first day you begin letro as the letro will not have taken any effect and you by no means want your body to be without any protection when gyno is already prevalent.

** You will remain at this dose until gyno symptoms subside. Once you believe your gyno is gone it is important to stay at this dose for another 4-7 days to ensure all traces are gone. It’s recommended that people with a bf% over 15 stay on for a week as it may be harder to judge completely whether the lump is completely gone.

Once this period is over it will be important to taper letro down slowly rather than coming off it completely. Regardless of which manner you tapered up your dose you will all taper down in the same fashion.

Day 1: 2.0mg
Day 2: 1.5mg
Day 3: 1.0mg
Day 4: .50mg***
Day 5: .25mg
***You can remain at this dose or go down further to .125mg. It is really up to you at this point. They are both very common maintenance doses as an anti-e while on cycle. Personally, most have stayed with .25mg and never had a problem.


#6

Up the Nolvadex to 40mg for a couple days to get to good blood levels and then run at 20mg to stop/reverse the gyno and get your ai and estrogen under control. The nolvadex might (should) take care of it with your estrogen controlled with an ai as any gyno is fresh and estrogen (growth) would be blocked more so if at least not the same as crashing your estrogen to almost 0. If not then consider some other measures but get that nolvadex blocking problems and correcting until then and after imo. Get blood work asap as well. In my opinion I’d switch to aromasin with your nolvadex and screw the Letrozole, but look into it but also others, the science, the bro-science, empirical experience, why something works, etc. Letrozole lowers estrogen dramatically, that is all that is relevant as a “cure”.


#7

how are you going to tell the guy to run a nolva reverse protocol to stop gyno when you follow up with advice that states “the nolvadex “might” should take care of it”, if you know anything about nolva is that it WILL NOT take away your gyno, do yourself a favor and do not give advice.

On the other hand I have had gyno running on dbol and tren cycle with loads of aromasin had pea sized lumps that developed into a small ball only thing that took it away was letrozole which i had to buy additionally since all the nolva i had and aromasin didnt do shit even at 50+mg ed

so take it from someone with actual experience, skip nolva get letro ASAP


#8

Listen cryptonite, sounds like you had a good experience with a bro-science protocol, great! I’m glad it worked for you, but please don’t be uninformed about the advice you give or choose to listen to or who you say shouldn’t give advice.
I explained that Letrozole lowers estrogen dramatically, and that is all that is relevant as a “cure” already. Nolvadex blocks the receptors in breast tissue and makes it next to impossible to grow when estrogen is also controlled, no need to mega dose Letrozole to lowering estrogen so low that there is none that could potentially bind. Now Nolvadex is going to lower the efficiency of Letrozole and arimidex, but that is overstated, still exemestane fits better. Now if someone only had Letrozole on hand and didn’t care about health, sides, or sex then it could be a great tool, though not as quickly as a serm. Being that the op doesn’t seem to have breast tissue that he’s dealing with, which would also have to have gone past the swollen stage and had become actual growth, and probably wants to quickly put a stop to his problems and reverse any, I can’t think of one logical or intelligent reason to recommend a old bro-science Letrozole protocol over sound science and logic.
Sorry OP about the mixed advice on your tread, it shows you that there are many opinions, and levels of education and experienced giving them.


#9

It is not broscience, you can research different protocols and 90% of the time you will see letro being used as an agressive option to cure gyno, not everyone reacts the same way to nolva, i took low to high doses for over 3+ weeks with arimidex and noticed no difference until i started letro.

A common reverse protocol would be to use a combination of 40mg / day of Tamoxifen with .5mg / day of Arimidex has been suggested as a way to halt acute gyno.

But Letro is the aggressive protocol that just seems to work everytime, theres a lot of threads on this with many results, some run it alone and some with nolva side by side and yes it will crash you but will make the gyno stop as well its a trade off. I myself crashed but 2-3 months later im back to normal and with no bitch tits.

Next time if you are going to atleast give some advice do not follow up with maybe or it may work or not sentence, i got mad at the fact that if you give advice atleast know it will work, everything i wrote is from personal experience and what i read and its not “bro science” i have already done 4-5 cycles i would not post something i know i would not try myself.


#10

Even with medically sound and studied advice along with 100% empirical experience I’m not going to promise someone that something will work 100% as I don’t know the details of everything he’s doing and dealing with nor seen his blood work. There is enough bro-science with the Letrozole protocol that it’s hard to argue against it, and there is enough science, medical studies, and bro-science with nolvadex that it’s hard to argue against. Now you called me out against my recommendation and told me not to give advice because you don’t understand how nolvadex works or don’t agree with it, or how Letrozole works to “cure” gyno. I find the Letrozole protocol unnecessary for red nips and he is wanting something to quickly stop the sides he’s having and reverse them (nolvadex or raloxifene), but as you obviously have had good luck with Letrozole as have others then great it’s an option. I have a lot more experience than you but that doesn’t mean I’ll know more about everything, definitely some things though, and this board is a great place to share advice, knowledge, experience and suggestions- no need for attacks. I’m sorry if I’ve come off wrong with you, I think we both have a lot to offer and can get aggressive with it at times.


#11

Here’s one medical study showing reversal of gyno that had been present for over 1 year with various compounds:

Danazol- 40% effective
Nolvadex- 78% effective
Arimidex- 0% effective
Letrozole- 0% effective.

Now this was with males with gyno for over a year which is impressive. In other studies it shows raloxifene as the superior compound for gyno removal but only slightly better than tamoxifen (nolva). Interestingly, while medical/university studies consistently show Letrozole to be a failure for gyno reduction, there is enough empirical evidence from forums that it appears to work for many at the cost of sides, there’s even bro protocols parroted like gospel that must be working, just not in studies.


#12

Update:

Running nolva 10mg/daily, adex .5mg/e3d for a week and a half now

Nips have STOPPED getting worse, just left soft with a lump in the left one. I believe E is lowered now as the red skin, hot flashes, etc have dissipated.

4 weeks left on cycle to combat the gyno remnant. Bumping up to 20mg/daily of liquid Nolva coupled with he adex/e3d. Might transition to exemestane from adex.

I feel the Nolva is doing me good, others advise kill it with a letrozole protocol but it may do as much harm as good as letro is rough.

Getting an estrogen panel next week.

^^And thanks so much you 2 for the advice I appreciate what both of you are sharing with me


#13

np bro, keep at it and let us know what happens


#14

Sorry to just jump into a conversation but I didn’t see where I could just message you directly. It seems you have a lot of knowledge with this and I am new to the game. I have a friend that has gear and seems to be pretty knowledgeable about it but I’d feel a lot better getting some more educated advice. I’m deathly scared of gyno. My buddy had me do a trial run of 350 mg test and 175mg deca weekly for 10 weeks. He said no pct or estrogen blocker. Said it weakened the gear and was unnecessary. It seems like the majority of people posting are using a pct and or estrogen blockers. I am a real newbie at this but saw great results from the 10 week cycle. Want to plan next one but want to get some input first.


#15

Hey Gym_Junkie, start a new tread and I’ll give my input. By stating a new tread you’ll get more input from others as well.
To be clear, are you asking if ai’s and pct are necessary, suggested, or both?


#16

Letro is tough on the body but it gets shit done. Use letro. Don’t worry about losing gains. Would you rather lose a little bit of gains for 8 weeks or would ya wanna grow a nice set of gyno tits? good luck bro