T Nation

Comparisons for AI's, PCT, and HCG


#1

Still reading and learning as much as possible and got to the PCT part. To make situation simpler, let's assume a simple cycle of test e ~500 per week for 12-16 wks with maybe a dbol kickstart. A few questions:

Which is better and why?
AI: Arimidex vs Aromasin
dex i know binds for a bit and unbinds later on, so gyno symptoms may reoccur
sin i know binds forever until the aromatase 'dies'

AI is used ONLY during cycle when symptoms of gyno appear, correct?

PCT Stuff:
Purpose of pct is to get the body to start making test naturally again, so...
Nolvadex vs Clomid vs Torem
I seem to notice most people prefer nolva over clomid. Doesn't it kind of do the same thing?
Clomid I hear has massive mood swings and vision sides, which makes nolva preferred?
Torem I haven't really understood but some prefer torem to both of them--why?
Also, I have seen some PCT cycles with BOTH nolva and clomid. What's the purpose f they both do the same?

HCG:
I read that this is important to get the gonads to start working again and people should have this during cycle as well on top of PCT, but for longer cycles, so a 12-16wk cycle wouldn't need this. Also this exacerbates gyno. It seems unnecessary for the most part, then, since a normal PCT does its job for a non-long cycle.

Thanks for helping :slightly_smiling:


#2

[quote]kickureface wrote:
Still reading and learning as much as possible and got to the PCT part. To make situation simpler, let’s assume a simple cycle of test e ~500 per week for 12-16 wks with maybe a dbol kickstart. A few questions:

Which is better and why?
AI: Arimidex vs Aromasin
dex i know binds for a bit and unbinds later on, so gyno symptoms may reoccur
sin i know binds forever until the aromatase ‘dies’[/quote]

Kinda, it’s personal preference really. Hard to say one is better than the other.

[quote]kickureface wrote:
AI is used ONLY during cycle when symptoms of gyno appear, correct?[/quote]

Incorrect. There is SO MUCH MORE TO HIGH OESTROGEN THAN JUST GYNO. Run your AI from the beginning. Some experienced users know they can get away without an AI but it’s Russian Roulette to do that for your first cycles. And it’s MUCH easier to just control E in the first place than to try and lower it once it’s gotten too high.

[quote]kickureface wrote:
PCT Stuff:
Purpose of pct is to get the body to start making test naturally again, so…
Nolvadex vs Clomid vs Torem
I seem to notice most people prefer nolva over clomid. Doesn’t it kind of do the same thing?
Clomid I hear has massive mood swings and vision sides, which makes nolva preferred?
Torem I haven’t really understood but some prefer torem to both of them–why?
Also, I have seen some PCT cycles with BOTH nolva and clomid. What’s the purpose f they both do the same?[/quote]

A SERM is not just a SERM. They have slightly different effects. I personally use a combo of clomid and nova, but then I do a longer PCT than most. Never tried torem so I can’t comment, however I will point out that clomid/nolva combo has been used by zillions of users for millennia. It works.

[quote]kickureface wrote:
HCG:
I read that this is important to get the gonads to start working again and people should have this during cycle as well on top of PCT, but for longer cycles, so a 12-16wk cycle wouldn’t need this. Also this exacerbates gyno. It seems unnecessary for the most part, then, since a normal PCT does its job for a non-long cycle.

Thanks for helping :slight_smile:
[/quote]

Again, you’re focussing too much on gyno here and missing the big picture. hCG turns your nuts back on (very much a layman’s explanation!) and does a great job of helping with recovery. Some people cycle without it and do fine. It’s an optional extra, but it’s so cheap I don’t understand why it wouldn’t be included. The faster you recover, the more gains you’ll keep. Why risk it? I have ran it on cycle and done other cycles where I just blasted it for a couple of weeks before PCT. Both worked fine.


#3

[quote]Yogi wrote:

[quote]kickureface wrote:
Still reading and learning as much as possible and got to the PCT part. To make situation simpler, let’s assume a simple cycle of test e ~500 per week for 12-16 wks with maybe a dbol kickstart. A few questions:

Which is better and why?
AI: Arimidex vs Aromasin
dex i know binds for a bit and unbinds later on, so gyno symptoms may reoccur
sin i know binds forever until the aromatase ‘dies’[/quote]

Kinda, it’s personal preference really. Hard to say one is better than the other.

[quote]kickureface wrote:
AI is used ONLY during cycle when symptoms of gyno appear, correct?[/quote]

Incorrect. There is SO MUCH MORE TO HIGH OESTROGEN THAN JUST GYNO. Run your AI from the beginning. Some experienced users know they can get away without an AI but it’s Russian Roulette to do that for your first cycles. And it’s MUCH easier to just control E in the first place than to try and lower it once it’s gotten too high.

[quote]kickureface wrote:
PCT Stuff:
Purpose of pct is to get the body to start making test naturally again, so…
Nolvadex vs Clomid vs Torem
I seem to notice most people prefer nolva over clomid. Doesn’t it kind of do the same thing?
Clomid I hear has massive mood swings and vision sides, which makes nolva preferred?
Torem I haven’t really understood but some prefer torem to both of them–why?
Also, I have seen some PCT cycles with BOTH nolva and clomid. What’s the purpose f they both do the same?[/quote]

A SERM is not just a SERM. They have slightly different effects. I personally use a combo of clomid and nova, but then I do a longer PCT than most. Never tried torem so I can’t comment, however I will point out that clomid/nolva combo has been used by zillions of users for millennia. It works.

[quote]kickureface wrote:
HCG:
I read that this is important to get the gonads to start working again and people should have this during cycle as well on top of PCT, but for longer cycles, so a 12-16wk cycle wouldn’t need this. Also this exacerbates gyno. It seems unnecessary for the most part, then, since a normal PCT does its job for a non-long cycle.

Thanks for helping :slight_smile:
[/quote]

Again, you’re focussing too much on gyno here and missing the big picture. hCG turns your nuts back on (very much a layman’s explanation!) and does a great job of helping with recovery. Some people cycle without it and do fine. It’s an optional extra, but it’s so cheap I don’t understand why it wouldn’t be included. The faster you recover, the more gains you’ll keep. Why risk it? I have ran it on cycle and done other cycles where I just blasted it for a couple of weeks before PCT. Both worked fine.[/quote]
Great responses, thanks! I guess the gyno comment was due to lack of sufficient knowledge of the effects, but noted.

I’ll consider HCG later on.

I’ll grab some AI and do 0.25mg a day to start off for the entire length of the cycle/PCT

I’ll wait for others to chime in before deciding what option is best for PCT. I just don’t want to cry about anything when taking clomid :3


#4

here’s a good read about why you should manage E


#5

^Yogi’s got some great advice there.

here are a couple links where i tried to break down some of this stuff:

http://tnation.T-Nation.com/...gyno_management

http://tnation.T-Nation.com/...on_planning_pct


#6

[quote]Yogi wrote:
here’s a good read about why you should manage E

apparently i never read that before, and i just started skimming through that…

i think the Happy-dog over-states the effects of estrogen on androgen receptors. he claims that estrogen can block testosterone from binding to the AR, but i don’t think that’s accurate at all (except in a few instances, like the prostate, etc)


#7

As Yogi said per SERM’s,

I prefer running both Nolva and Clomid. Nolva I run at lower doses of 20mg for 4-6 weeks and Clomid at a 100/100/50/50 rate. Nolva is more beneficial but I personally have had bad experiences with sides running it alone. Clomids sides have not hindered me too much other than blurry vision but I take all my SERM doses before bed so it doesn’t matter.

HCG is a great investment. It is not expensive and when used properly, makes your recovery 5x better.