If you come to my church you will be welcome, but if you boldly proclaim you are an acting homosexual you will be stongly advised not to receive the sacraments.[/quote]
If you come to the Church where I was raised you will be welcome. If you stand up and proclaim that the death of 5,000 people (of any type) is, in any way more important than or comparable to the death of 80,000 German citizens, 3,000,000 Jews or 6,000,000 Christians that the Nazis killed, you’d better leave before everyone else does and probably shouldn’t come back.
[quote]pat wrote:
The church ain’t a democracy. It’s stance on homosexuality will never change. Like I said in the previous thread, it is condemned in scripture through out, cover to cover. For all the ambiguity in the scriptures this ain’t one of those cases.
Now, I have no problems worshiping and welcoming homosexuals to worship God with me, but open them up to the sacraments I cannot do.
If you come to my church you will be welcome, but if you boldly proclaim you are an acting homosexual you will be stongly advised not to receive the sacraments. Now, there will be no gun to your head of course, but you are in excommunication as a practicing homosexual. You can hear the word but not receive the sacraments.
The piano player at my church is queer as a 3 dollar bill and he is treated just like everybody else. Now of course outside of my family I don’t know how many actually know that, but we’re not running to tattle tell on him either. It’s kinda obvious though. It’s got nothing to do with me. That’s between him, God and the church.
[/quote]
He’s the piano player, what did you expect?
I was actually referring to gay believers who choose to remain celibate. As long as they are celibate, would you feel comfortable welcoming them into your congregation, inviting them to share communion, and even ordaining them as priests?[/quote]
I happen to know a person just like you are referring to he is one of the most amazing people I have ever met. He is extremely faithful so much so, that he put his homosexual temptations aside for the sake of God. I didn’t know for years he was gay, but he is absolutely in full communion with the church. It’s not your temptations that define you, it’s you actions. He is a good friend to my brother. He did consider pursuing Holy Orders but he never did do it.
A celebrate homosexual who is catholic is in communion with the church ever bit as much as anyone else. Given their particular challenges even more so.
[quote]forlife wrote:
First, I want to say for the record that I believe Christianity has much to offer the world. I personally consider Jesus to be the greatest of all teachers. If the world would follow his message of love, most of the problems we create for ourselves and for others would disappear.
So, is there any possibility of common ground with Christianity and homosexuality?
[…]
[/quote]
I cannot see any way you could reconcile the bible and today’s western approach to live an open, honest and integrated life as a homosexual person.
This gawd was very clear: it’s an abomination- smite it!
The mythological creature named Jesus would have felt only contempt; homosexuals were below tollkeepers and whores.
The historical Jesus, or the various rabbis that maybe made up part of the largely constructed story would have eagerly thrown the first stone.
The only common ground you’ll find are the legions of repressed homosexuals living their clandestine, distorted lives as members of the clergy.
Why do you want to be loved and accepted by a fantasy monster and it’s largely blind followers? These guys hate you.
Just because some verses appeal to you? I think you know the rest of the good book.
As soon as they have enough power again, there won’t be any more nice Hippie-Jesus talk or churches that openly accept gays. It’s the inquisitor from Brothers Karamasov who’ll take the reins.
The world knows millions of gods, if you desperately need invisible friends with superpowers, why not find some jollier and gay-friendlier ones?
Hindusim and Taoism are both very alive and kicking.
[quote]forlife wrote:
First, I want to say for the record that I believe Christianity has much to offer the world. I personally consider Jesus to be the greatest of all teachers. If the world would follow his message of love, most of the problems we create for ourselves and for others would disappear.
So, is there any possibility of common ground with Christianity and homosexuality?
[…]
[/quote]
I cannot see any way you could reconcile the bible and today’s western approach to live an open, honest and integrated life as a homosexual person.
This gawd was very clear: it’s an abomination- smite it!
The mythological creature named Jesus would have felt only contempt; homosexuals were below tollkeepers and whores.
The historical Jesus, or the various rabbis that maybe made up part of the largely constructed story would have eagerly thrown the first stone.
The only common ground you’ll find are the legions of repressed homosexuals living their clandestine, distorted lives as members of the clergy.
Why do you want to be loved and accepted by a fantasy monster and it’s largely blind followers? These guys hate you.
Just because some verses appeal to you? I think you know the rest of the good book.
As soon as they have enough power again, there won’t be any more nice Hippie-Jesus talk or churches that openly accept gays. It’s the inquisitor from Brothers Karamasov who’ll take the reins.
The world knows millions of gods, if you desperately need invisible friends with superpowers, why not find some jollier and gay-friendlier ones?
Hindusim and Taoism are both very alive and kicking.
[/quote] there are no indications whatsoever that Jesus would meet homosexuals with contempt. Only love and understanding.
[quote]forlife wrote:<<< From your perspective, gays should follow Christianity, >>>[/quote]From my perspective EVERY last single human being who ever has is or will exist is commanded to surrender all that they are and all that they have to the promised Christ of God who alone can take away their universal sin and guilt. Homosexuals are not particularly special in that regard. [quote]forlife wrote:<<< the less guilty they will feel about not being able to change their basic orientation.[/quote]Here is where you really don’t get it. The supernatural God who is really there CAN AND DOES change their basic orientation as He did mine though I have never been gay. The gospel IS NOT a stoic set of high moral regulations brought to us by a groovy Jewish guy a long time ago. It is a resurrection from true death in sin to true eternal life in Christ which by definition is a new birth into a new nature provided free of charge to all those who believe. It utterly transforms human beings from the inside out and will be instantly visible in those who have so been raised.
That does not mean that temptations will not remain, but the new man created in Christ Jesus unto holiness will abhor the old man born from the sin of father Adam. They are at war. Yes WAR with one another. The old man who looks, talks and acts just like the world around him and the new man who is pierced in his heart at the very thought of misrepresenting before a lost world his Lord who he loves above all else. I live right in the middle of that warfare every single day.
Some days are better than others, but I have never had a sinless day my life, including today. His mercies are new every morning and I thank Him for that.
[quote]pat wrote:
The church ain’t a democracy. It’s stance on homosexuality will never change. Like I said in the previous thread, it is condemned in scripture through out, cover to cover. For all the ambiguity in the scriptures this ain’t one of those cases.
Now, I have no problems worshiping and welcoming homosexuals to worship God with me, but open them up to the sacraments I cannot do.
If you come to my church you will be welcome, but if you boldly proclaim you are an acting homosexual you will be stongly advised not to receive the sacraments. Now, there will be no gun to your head of course, but you are in excommunication as a practicing homosexual. You can hear the word but not receive the sacraments.
The piano player at my church is queer as a 3 dollar bill and he is treated just like everybody else. Now of course outside of my family I don’t know how many actually know that, but we’re not running to tattle tell on him either. It’s kinda obvious though. It’s got nothing to do with me. That’s between him, God and the church.
[/quote]
He’s the piano player, what did you expect?
I was actually referring to gay believers who choose to remain celibate. As long as they are celibate, would you feel comfortable welcoming them into your congregation, inviting them to share communion, and even ordaining them as priests?[/quote]
[quote]forlife wrote:<<< In your view, is homosexuality inherently sinful? Or is it homosexual acts? If a person is openly gay, but doesn’t engage in homosexual acts, is he free of sin?[/quote]Elder Forlife is on a roll today. Sins of the mind and heart are just as offensive to the living God of the bible than overt actions. That’s why He says that merely lusting after someone unlawful to you or being unjustifiably angry with someone is adultery and murder respectively (Matthew 5:27-28). Willfully maintaining a homosexual heart is as the act itself. Yes it is inherently sinful and is declared so in unmistakable terms to anyone without an agenda in both testaments. That said, temptation is not sin in itself until the subjective will embraces and upholds it. Jesus was tempted in all ways as we are yet without sin (Hebrews 4:15). (please don’t ask me how that worked)
[/quote]
How about the desire itself though, the basic orientation? Do you consider that sinful, as long as the person isn’t willfully entertaining lustful thoughts?[/quote]
Have not read other responses but quickly: The desire itself is not a sin. That is a natural and indeed important aspect of human nature. It is the dwelling upon and nurturing of purely sexual desire (lust) that becomes sinful. This is not limited to homosexuality, either. The reason, too, should be easy to see, in that we begin to view people not as other souls, but selfishly objectify them into objects we would bend and manipulate to our own pleasure.
[quote]forlife wrote<<< I was actually referring to gay believers who choose to remain celibate. As long as they are celibate, would you feel comfortable welcoming them into your congregation >>>[/quote]Man this is a great question. However, God will have to make me independently wealthy and give me six more hours in a day to respond to everything I’d like to respond to here. The VERY short answer is that anybody who calls their sin SIN, a violation of divine law in agreement with God and is laying it on His altar as a warrior for His truth and testimony is welcome in my church. That would include homosexuality. I would go so far as to say (my considered opinion) that a person living by grace in victory of over this extremely powerful sin is storing up for themselves vast rewards in the coming resurrection for their stellar representation of the transforming power of the gospel of Christ. That would be in character for the God I know though I can’t point to chapter and verse per se.
BTW, I happen to know for a fact that He can and has freed member of both sexes to live very godly married lives to members of the opposite sex. No doubt about it.
[/quote]
In your view, is homosexuality inherently sinful? Or is it homosexual acts? If a person is openly gay, but doesn’t engage in homosexual acts, is he free of sin?[/quote]
You need to define “openly gay.”
The act is sinful. The same way adultery is sinful. You wouldn’t expect a church to accept someone unapologetically involved in an adulterous relationship. However, if that person resolved to stop engaging in that sin and do everything in his power to live a godly life, he should certainly be welcomed.
The issue is not whether or not someone is homosexual or even if they engage in homosexual acts…it’s whether or not they repent. The issue in America today is when openly gay individuals go on marches and proclaim there homosexuality and embrace it and condemn everyone that disagrees with them as bigots. It’s very black and white on how the Bible views homosexuality. Just like all humans we are not perfect and when we confess our sins we are forgiven. Embracing homosexuality is no different then embracing any other sin.
[quote]
forlife said:
What do you think about welcoming gays into your congregation who share your beliefs, and choose to be celibate for the rest of their life? Instead of sending the message that they are flawed and inferior, how do you feel about loving them for who they are? As long as they remain celibate, would you be able to embrace them as brothers and sisters, despite knowing that they are attracted to people of the same gender? Would you share communion with them, and even support them as teachers and pastors, if such was their calling?[/quote]
As an Eastern Orthodox, I’d say this is it.
If they choose to be celibate and fight against this, they are as good a Christian as anyone else, certainly not inferior. If they fall and then repent, they’re still as good as anyone else and no one has the right to judge them.
Actually, they deserve respect if they fight against this desire. (as anyone else who strongly opposes his sinful desires - be they judging others, pride, adultery etc.) (or, even more so, due to a harder fight; then again it’s a hard fight to abstain from any form of heterosexual extramarital sex,too)
As priests: depends. A man who had, even once, regardless of when, premarital sex with a woman, can’t be ordained (theoretically). A man who had, even once, regardless of when, sex with a man, can not ever be ordained.
If they didn’t have sex, it’d depend on the bishop. But, probably, not if they’re “openly” gay. This, because most people would think they actually had/have sex with men and that they encourage homosexuality.
[quote]forlife wrote:
I apologize for creating multiple threads, but I felt the other thread was accomplishing little except to stir up anger and defensiveness. The one thing I ask in this thread is that if you don’t have something constructive to say, please don’t post. I will hold myself to this same standard.[/quote]
Apology accepted.
[quote]First, I want to say for the record that I believe Christianity has much to offer the world. I personally consider Jesus to be the greatest of all teachers. If the world would follow his message of love, most of the problems we create for ourselves and for others would disappear.
So, is there any possibility of common ground with Christianity and homosexuality?[/quote]
What do you mean by common ground?
[quote]Let’s set aside the differences in Christian beliefs regarding homosexuality. Some Christian churches welcome people in same sex relationships, some welcome gays who are celibate, and some exclude gays entirely. Discussing those differences is not the focus of this thread.
Can we find any common ground?[/quote]
Well, I guess I suppose I can find common ground between Christianity and homosexuality, in kind but not degree. If we make both categories for a moment, the former and the latter both have the same objective goal. This is somewhat of a misnomer, as this goal is shared with all of humanity. It is not far from saying that we share common ground, but our paths are not similar.
Christianity, specifically Catholicism is that which allows man to find Love, and homosexuality has the same pursuit here. In that those who are homosexual desire love. G.K. Chesterton would clear this matter up by his often quoted writ, a man who walks into a brothel is looking for God.
All humans have an inherent and real desire for God. This is built into us so deeply that if misguided will manifest in the most destructive of manners. As G.K pointed out, with the man and the brother, that man’s first desire is for God. Though he manifests it in unworthy causes such as food, drink, excessive speed, prostitutes, illicit sex, gambling, and power.
It is first good to realise what gays are and what they are not. All people are children of God and are to be treated so. To do otherwise is to sin against God and man, a determent to one’s salvation and will bring utter ruin upon one. The Church and society in general has seemed to forget what treating someone as a child of God means. To love them is the commandment, though we have not forgotten that love is the commandment, we have forgotten what love is.
We have to learn all over again. Love does not mean we do not admonish, or bring justice, &c. It means we treat them with love, with Charity. Justice being charity, means that we recognize that people are not equal. We do not treat the murder as the victim, we do not treat the thief as one who has lost something, and we do not with hold admonishment from our brother when he falls.
Second, we treat them with the mind that all men are flawed, or better fallen. We have to be a realist in understanding that man is not perfect, he is fallen. To deny that he is fallen is to realise that he needs mercy. Mercy being internal orientated, but fraternal correction and justice being external orientation of Charity. As Kreeft wrote, we have to be bleeding heart liberals and head stuck in the mud conservatives. Though we have forgiveness and mercy in our hearts, fraternal correction and justice should not be ignored as that would not charity. But, it would be the opposite, its vice: hatred.
Homosexuals are no different from any other variety of sinner, at least not in kind. Some maybe different by margin in degree. This should be dealt with in particular, not in general, specifically individual. Though if a brother does fall publicly and it is prudent to admonish him publicly so as not to cause scandal it is just to do so as to allow for the sinner to bring forth good and prove sin is detrimental to others.
[quote]forlife wrote:
I apologize for creating multiple threads, but I felt the other thread was accomplishing little except to stir up anger and defensiveness. The one thing I ask in this thread is that if you don’t have something constructive to say, please don’t post. I will hold myself to this same standard.[/quote]
Apology accepted.
[quote]First, I want to say for the record that I believe Christianity has much to offer the world. I personally consider Jesus to be the greatest of all teachers. If the world would follow his message of love, most of the problems we create for ourselves and for others would disappear.
So, is there any possibility of common ground with Christianity and homosexuality?[/quote]
What do you mean by common ground?
[quote]Let’s set aside the differences in Christian beliefs regarding homosexuality. Some Christian churches welcome people in same sex relationships, some welcome gays who are celibate, and some exclude gays entirely. Discussing those differences is not the focus of this thread.
Can we find any common ground?[/quote]
Well, I guess I suppose I can find common ground between Christianity and homosexuality, in kind but not degree. If we make both categories for a moment, the former and the latter both have the same objective goal. This is somewhat of a misnomer, as this goal is shared with all of humanity. It is not far from saying that we share common ground, but our paths are not similar.
Christianity, specifically Catholicism is that which allows man to find Love, and homosexuality has the same pursuit here. In that those who are homosexual desire love. G.K. Chesterton would clear this matter up by his often quoted writ, a man who walks into a brothel is looking for God.
All humans have an inherent and real desire for God. This is built into us so deeply that if misguided will manifest in the most destructive of manners. As G.K pointed out, with the man and the brother, that man’s first desire is for God. Though he manifests it in unworthy causes such as food, drink, excessive speed, prostitutes, illicit sex, gambling, and power.
It is first good to realise what gays are and what they are not. All people are children of God and are to be treated so. To do otherwise is to sin against God and man, a determent to one’s salvation and will bring utter ruin upon one. The Church and society in general has seemed to forget what treating someone as a child of God means. To love them is the commandment, though we have not forgotten that love is the commandment, we have forgotten what love is.
We have to learn all over again. Love does not mean we do not admonish, or bring justice, &c. It means we treat them with love, with Charity. Justice being charity, means that we recognize that people are not equal. We do not treat the murder as the victim, we do not treat the thief as one who has lost something, and we do not with hold admonishment from our brother when he falls.
Second, we treat them with the mind that all men are flawed, or better fallen. We have to be a realist in understanding that man is not perfect, he is fallen. To deny that he is fallen is to realise that he needs mercy. Mercy being internal orientated, but fraternal correction and justice being external orientation of Charity. As Kreeft wrote, we have to be bleeding heart liberals and head stuck in the mud conservatives. Though we have forgiveness and mercy in our hearts, fraternal correction and justice should not be ignored as that would not charity. But, it would be the opposite, its vice: hatred.
Homosexuals are no different from any other variety of sinner, at least not in kind. Some maybe different by margin in degree. This should be dealt with in particular, not in general, specifically individual. Though if a brother does fall publicly and it is prudent to admonish him publicly so as not to cause scandal it is just to do so as to allow for the sinner to bring forth good and prove sin is detrimental to others.
[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
there are no indications whatsoever that Jesus would meet homosexuals with contempt. Only love and understanding.
[/quote]
Hippie-talk nonsense.
Of course there is.
Even the biblical Jesus showed little love for non-jews, expelled “demons”, and worked with this curious concept of “sin”.
Whores may be forgiven if they refrain from sinning, so it’s ridiculous to assume that homosexuality would have demanded less (“just continue with your wayward ways, my son”).
A non-jew homosexual (which is sinful or perhaps indicates a demon) who wouldn’t be interested in permanently repenting or having the demon expelled would have not been worth his time.
Don’t ask me what a proper bronze age diagnosis would demand for, exorcism, distance-healing, maybe just forgiving?
I don’t think that forlife wishes for Jesus to help him overcome his homosexuality?
Besides, Jesus affirmed the old testament and since we don’t know of any new deal for homosexuals, the idea of being able to integrate them into any kind of christian way is bizarre.
[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
there are no indications whatsoever that Jesus would meet homosexuals with contempt. Only love and understanding.
[/quote]
Hippie-talk nonsense.
Of course there is.
Even the biblical Jesus showed little love for non-jews, expelled “demons”, and worked with this curious concept of “sin”.
Whores may be forgiven if they refrain from sinning, so it’s ridiculous to assume that homosexuality would have demanded less (“just continue with your wayward ways, my son”).
A non-jew homosexual (which is sinful or perhaps indicates a demon) who wouldn’t be interested in permanently repenting or having the demon expelled would have not been worth his time.
Don’t ask me what a proper bronze age diagnosis would demand for, exorcism, distance-healing, maybe just forgiving?
I don’t think that forlife wishes for Jesus to help him overcome his homosexuality?
Besides, Jesus affirmed the old testament and since we don’t know of any new deal for homosexuals, the idea of being able to integrate them into any kind of christian way is bizarre.[/quote]
Your last statement is flawed, but it is late so I’ll just say this. Jesus treated the non-jews better than he treated the jews (look at the Samaritan woman).
[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
there are no indications whatsoever that Jesus would meet homosexuals with contempt. Only love and understanding.
[/quote]
Hippie-talk nonsense.
Of course there is.
Even the biblical Jesus showed little love for non-jews, expelled “demons”, and worked with this curious concept of “sin”.
Whores may be forgiven if they refrain from sinning, so it’s ridiculous to assume that homosexuality would have demanded less (“just continue with your wayward ways, my son”).
A non-jew homosexual (which is sinful or perhaps indicates a demon) who wouldn’t be interested in permanently repenting or having the demon expelled would have not been worth his time.
Don’t ask me what a proper bronze age diagnosis would demand for, exorcism, distance-healing, maybe just forgiving?
I don’t think that forlife wishes for Jesus to help him overcome his homosexuality?
Besides, Jesus affirmed the old testament and since we don’t know of any new deal for homosexuals, the idea of being able to integrate them into any kind of christian way is bizarre.[/quote]
[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
there are no indications whatsoever that Jesus would meet homosexuals with contempt. Only love and understanding.
[/quote]
Hippie-talk nonsense.
Of course there is.
Even the biblical Jesus showed little love for non-jews, expelled “demons”, and worked with this curious concept of “sin”.
Whores may be forgiven if they refrain from sinning, so it’s ridiculous to assume that homosexuality would have demanded less (“just continue with your wayward ways, my son”).
A non-jew homosexual (which is sinful or perhaps indicates a demon) who wouldn’t be interested in permanently repenting or having the demon expelled would have not been worth his time.
Don’t ask me what a proper bronze age diagnosis would demand for, exorcism, distance-healing, maybe just forgiving?
I don’t think that forlife wishes for Jesus to help him overcome his homosexuality?
Besides, Jesus affirmed the old testament and since we don’t know of any new deal for homosexuals, the idea of being able to integrate them into any kind of christian way is bizarre.[/quote]
Jesus would absolutely accept Forlife. He would love the sinner even if not the sin. But the whole reason he sacrificed himself on the cross, rose from the dead and ascended to Heaven is so forlife and every other human could lay their burdens down at Jesus’ feet and be whole as God defines whole, despite their Biblical, human short comings.
And yes, once you decide to enter a covenent with God, the intent is to work at overcoming what ever sins you struggle with, but in the big picture you have been accepted, loved and forgiven through the sacrifice of a perfect Christ. Made completely new. This is Christianity.
The finger pointing, exclusions, human judgements et cetera do not come from a Godly place, even if they originate from a church body. You must seperate human opinion from God’s will and to do this, you read and understand the Bible in context.
Show me some verses rather than your conjecture to back your view.
If you are totally focused on getting love from an angry, jealous, mesopotamian god, then I suppose the Bahai could have just the semitic monotheism for you.
To them, being and living as a gay person would be technically still a sin, but the whole concept of sinning is more personal.
Just a thought. By the way, won’t you respond to your thread?
@Houstonguy
That’s what you say.
Countless others sing a different tune.
Besides, Jesus proclaims at least three times -to my knowledge- how the old rules are still in place (Which made the Inquisition a very busy institution).
Also, the irony is that hippieverses like “let he who is without sin…” were among the latest, very much manmade additions to the canon (bible) of earlier Jesus-fiction.
If you are totally focused on getting love from an angry, jealous, mesopotamian god, then I suppose the Bahai could have just the semitic monotheism for you.
To them, being and living as a gay person would be technically still a sin, but the whole concept of sinning is more personal.
Just a thought. By the way, won’t you respond to your thread?
@Houstonguy
That’s what you say.
Countless others sing a different tune.
Besides, Jesus proclaims at least three times -to my knowledge- how the old rules are still in place (Which made the Inquisition a very busy institution).
Also, the irony is that hippieverses like “let he who is without sin…” were among the latest, very much manmade additions to the canon (bible) of earlier Jesus-fiction.
[/quote]No, it’s what the Bible says. What people say has no relevance.
[quote]forlife wrote:<<< From your perspective, gays should follow Christianity, >>>[/quote]From my perspective EVERY last single human being who ever has is or will exist is commanded to surrender all that they are and all that they have to the promised Christ of God who alone can take away their universal sin and guilt. Homosexuals are not particularly special in that regard. [quote]forlife wrote:<<< the less guilty they will feel about not being able to change their basic orientation.[/quote]Here is where you really don’t get it. The supernatural God who is really there CAN AND DOES change their basic orientation as He did mine though I have never been gay. The gospel IS NOT a stoic set of high moral regulations brought to us by a groovy Jewish guy a long time ago. It is a resurrection from true death in sin to true eternal life in Christ which by definition is a new birth into a new nature provided free of charge to all those who believe. It utterly transforms human beings from the inside out and will be instantly visible in those who have so been raised.
That does not mean that temptations will not remain, but the new man created in Christ Jesus unto holiness will abhor the old man born from the sin of father Adam. They are at war. Yes WAR with one another. The old man who looks, talks and acts just like the world around him and the new man who is pierced in his heart at the very thought of misrepresenting before a lost world his Lord who he loves above all else. I live right in the middle of that warfare every single day.
Some days are better than others, but I have never had a sinless day my life, including today. His mercies are new every morning and I thank Him for that.
[/quote]
I do get it. The basic sexual orientation doesn’t change, i.e., gays do not suddenly lose their basic attraction for people of the same gender, but gay believers are completely dedicated to their faith in Christ, and their orientation (the natural man) is subsumed by that faith.
That doesn’t mean they won’t still struggle with their sexuality, but it is secondary to the higher and holier purpose of their god.
