T Nation

Coming off 1.5 years of TRT


#1

I've been on testosterone replacement therapy for about a year and a half. I've decided to stop for several reasons, one of which is in hopes of getting the new wife pregnant.

When I spoke with the Doctor about coming off he gave me HCG about one week before we stopped my weekly injections of testosterone. After reading both of the forums on here, and doing some other research it seems like the consensus would have been to take the HCG for the last 8-10 weeks of TRT then stop it when I stop the testosterone. I have been off the TRT for just over 2 weeks.

1) My question is, should I continue taking the HCG at this point for a few weeks? If so, at what dose?

2) Should I return on the TRT for another 4 weeks while running the HCG and then stop both at the same time?

3) Should I discontinue the HCG and begin a PCT protocol in a couple of weeks?

My last question, is for anyone who has been on TRT for a long period of time and looking to come off. Do you recommend a certain PCT protocol for being shut down that long?

Thanks for the help


#2

Did you get your sperm tested while on TRT? There are tons of guys on TRT and AAS cycles who have managed to get their old ladies preggers (some didn’t even mean to!)

Most guys should be utilizing HCG while on TRT, especially if fertility is a concern.


#3

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
Did you get your sperm tested while on TRT? There are tons of guys on TRT and AAS cycles who have managed to get their old ladies preggers (some didn’t even mean to!)

Most guys should be utilizing HCG while on TRT, especially if fertility is a concern.

[/quote]

VTBalla,

Yeah I’m one of the unlucky ones apparently, very low and didn’t bank.

I’ve also had some other issues while on TRT that I’m hoping a hiatus will rule out a correlation between the two.

Any suggestions on what to do to boost the boys and regain natural levels to as close as possible to the old ones? Do you recommend I post this in the steroid section since it is basically discussing PCT?

Thanks again


#4

Why are you on TRT to begin with? Were you primary (nuts didn’t work) or secondary (pituitary didnt send signal)? This determines your next course of action.

Can you (or your insurance) afford HMG (not to be confused with hcg)? This is superior for fertility.


#5

I have been in precisely the same situation as you, and oddly enough opened this thread on a day where I received some encouraging news.

I was on full TRT (check my thread for protocol) for 2 years. Last year I received a zero sperm count result, and was faced with several options. This was obvioulsy because my HPTA was shut down, FSH specifically.

I decided to quit testosterone injections but remain on hCG (I was on hCG for the duration of TRT) for 6 weeks, and then quit hCG all together.

After 3 months off testosterone and 6 weeks off hCG, my testosterone is borderline low (expected) but my LH and FSH are mid range, meaning my HPTA is back online, and sperm production should resume.

So, take all this for what it is, I figured you’d like some input from someone in your situation.


#6

Literally in the same place as you guys and trying to decide what to do.

I have great insurancand my doc os pretty open. Is HMG preferable to HCG?

NeelyDan,
How did you feel coming off (symptoms wise) and do you have any advice for me as I prepare to come off?

Thanks


#7

I felt (and still feel, at points) as you’d expect one to feel when he bottoms out his hormones - zero energy, motivation, heavily emotional, just an entire myriad of physical and emotional and cognitive symptoms. But, we want children, so that has to remain the light at the end of the tunnel, right?

hMg is certainly preferable to hCG, but costs MUCH (like three grand a month much) more.


#8

this may be a very good read for you guys…
Im currently on TRT, so was looking for a possible exit strategy and came across this… The guy claims to have had no down time while coming off.
Im not sure if Im allowed to post links to other sites in here so will just post the relevant threads…
Otherwise do a google on cashout’s exit strategy…

Quotes
"TRT is for life, but what if you wanted to try to get your own test levels back up after it was lowered by AAS or TRT.

Cashout did a great thread on Ology, but it is hard to find after being moved and is valuable, so I am posting the link and an excerpt here.

"As I have recently past my 2 year anniversary of HRT, I have spent some time reflecting on what I have accomplished with this program.
After extensive research, I turned to HRT a possible solution to my declining test levels in 2009. At the time Istarted HRT, my test level was 579 ng/dl. Not low by most standards but about 30% off my normal levels of 900+ ng/dl that I had maintain for some 15 years.
The symptoms of my declining test were as follows…

  1. Frequent overtraining. I had reached a point for the first time in my bodybuilding lifestyle where about every 3 months, I would find myself overtrained. In 20 years daily committed train, this had never happened before.
  2. Persistent and chronic minor illness. I had begun a steady process of developing repetitive colds and flu-like illnesses that were a function of #1 above.
  3. Loss of muscle mass. Because of #1 & especially #2 above, I had drop about nearly 10 pounds of quality muscle.
  4. Lack of metal focus. Again, I had never experienced this in my adult life in any capacity. Focus and will are the only things that I have ever possessed in abundance.

In my 2 years on HRT, I can say that I have remedied all of the above symptoms. So, I would declare my HRT a smashing success.
However, there is still one facet of my HRT that I have yet to assess my EXIT STRATEGY.
Like everything business related Ive owned and been involved in, I always have an exit strategy in the event that it is ever needed.
So, at this juncture, I am considering testing my HRT Exit Strategy to see if will indeed produce the results that I expect.
I am considering this not as a means to quit HRT but to reassure myself that I have covered all my bases and can proceed forward on HRT for the indefinite future knowing that if there is ever an issue down the road, I have already operationalize and tested my exit strategy successfully.
I started constructing my exit strategy based on some of my own previous research and personal experiences from my days using AAS to supplement by competitive bodybuilding. Also, Ive spent a tremendous amount of time and energy in the past 4 weeks discussing my exit strategy with several very knowledgeable physicians.
So, here is the plan that we have constructed and I will follow

Week HCG clomid Nolva letro
1 M/W/F/Su 2000 1.25 M/Th
2 T/Th/Sa 2000 1.25 M/Th
3 M/W/F 2000 1.25 M/Th
3 Sat/Sun 100 40 1.25 M/Th
4 Every Day 100 40 1.25 M/Th
5 100 40 1.25 M/Th
6 100 40 1.25 M/Th
7 40 1.25 M/Th
8 40 1.25 M/Th
9 1.25 M/Th
10 1.25 M/Th

I will take my last 100 mg shot of test cyp on the Monday one week before I start my exit. During the week before exiting, I will also have my blood work done for comparative purposes.
My blood work will be done again on the Friday of the 3rd week towards the end of the HCG treatments, again when I discontinue the clomid treatments, and finally, two weeks after I complete the Nolva treatments."

============
His next post quoted.

"I’ve corresponded with a lot of folks about my ‘Exit’ over the past 6 months and I wanted to reinforce one very important fact again.

Before I did my first steroid cycle at age 18 (yup, you read that correctly) my natural test levels were around 900 ng/dl.

I did a number of cycles from the time I was 18 until I quit competing at age 23.

After each cycle, which were never more than 12 weeks and never more than 900 mg a week total, I always follow an HCG, Clomid, Nolva PCT and had my test levels check via blood work. Without fail, I was always able to restore my natural test levels to +/- 900ng/dl using that formula.

From the time I was 23 until the time I started HRT in the Fall of 2009 (almost 17 years), I never cycled. I trained and dieted just like I always had but there was no reason for me to cycle since I was not competing.

In that time, my blood work consistently showed a natural test level of near 900 ng/dl.

So, that was clearly my normal natural level.

My point in stating this again is simple. It seems a lot of guys read my exit thread and think that if they follow what I did they too will get a 900 ng/dl natural test level.

Let me say this clearly. If you never had natural test levels that high previously, you are not going to achieve them but using my exit protocol. It very well may take you back to your normal natural test levels but it will not make you something that you never were.

So, if you are going to follow it as a “restart” which I know a lot of guys have done on the other site - your chances of success are pretty good that you’ll get the HPTA up and functioning normally again. I know because I’ve had several guys from the other site do it and tell me it worked for them. One was even able to get his sperm count high enough to get his wife pregnant. Something the Drs told him he was not capable of doing"

His next post quoted

"
"I don’t plan on it. 900+/- is where my natural levels have always been since the time I was 16-17 years old.

Even after 5 years of cycle when I was competing, I was able to restore that natural test level.

The problem started when my levels dropped to to 579 in 06’.

In 06’ I got caught in what I call the “death spiral” of over training. I started getting colds and flu and that had never happened in my life. When I would recover, of course, I’d train even harder and it happen all over again.

So, I learned a lot about how much my body can actually handle. For the first time in my life, I had to admit that I could actually over train.

In 20 some odd years of training, I never was able to accomplish that. It is true, strange things start to happen as we age.

So, long answer to short question, I think I am smarter now and I can avoid what caused my drop in T the first go around."

Next post quoted

"'As I noted in the original thread on another board, I never experienced and physical downturns, loss of energy, or mental swings during or since the exit.

It went as smoothly as I could have hoped.

I attribute that to the extensive amount of planning and monitoring that I did with my physicians prior, during, and after the exit.

I have actually gain a couple of pounds of muscle since the exit."

Ok those are cashout’s posts in order… Im going to add what I think is a break down of his PCT

Week HCG clomid Nolva letro
1 M/W/F/Su 2000 1.25 M/Th
2 T/Th/Sa 2000 1.25 M/Th
3 M/W/F 2000 1.25 M/Th
3 Sat/Sun 100 40 1.25 M/Th
4 Every Day 100 40 1.25 M/Th
5 100 40 1.25 M/Th
6 100 40 1.25 M/Th
7 40 1.25 M/Th
8 40 1.25 M/Th
9 1.25 M/Th
10 1.25 M/Th

broken down per week:

  1. hcg @ 2000 iu per the days he shows m/w/f/su THEN M/TH he did letro @ 1.25
  2. T/Th/Sa hcg @2000iu letro @ 1.25 on M/Th
  3. M/W/F hcg @2000 iu letro @ 1.25 M/Th
  4. Sat/Sun clomid @100mlg nolva@ 40 letro@ 1.25 M/Th
  5. EVERY DAY clomid@100 nolva@40 letro@1.25 M/Th
  6. clomid@100 nolva@40 letro@1.25 M/Th
  7. clomid@100 nolva@40 letro@1.25 M/Th
    weeks 7 and 8 are the same: nolva@40 letro@1.25
  8. and 10. are the same 1.25 letro m/th

#9

Love the avatar by the way NeelyDan… :slight_smile:


#10

[quote]achevelli wrote:
Literally in the same place as you guys and trying to decide what to do.

I have great insurancand my doc os pretty open. Is HMG preferable to HCG?

NeelyDan,
How did you feel coming off (symptoms wise) and do you have any advice for me as I prepare to come off?

Thanks

[/quote]

Come off badly and you are going to feel like utter crap for weeks, months, or even years. Yes that’s years. Liken it to depression. You will feel like sitting on the couch all day with your head in your hands wondering what the hell is wrong with your self. Or that’s how I felt last time I tried to come off cold turkey… It got so bad after a while I went back on… I just couldn’t handle the down time… I have had a friend who was depressed for 4 years straight. Said it was a wonder he didn’t top himself… I read a study on andriol users that were on only for a matter of weeks then came off with out any down time so it probably depends on dosage what your taking and length of time on. Andriol one would assume would be easier to come off due to it not shutting down your pituitary gland.


#11

Hi, do you take that clomid and Nolvadex together? And also I’m concerned about hairloss for that high levels? Should I add something like Propecia? Thank you


#12

Rayno,

Waking up a thread that has been idle for 4 years is not a great thing.

Clomid and Nolvadex should never be used together and high doses should always be avoided.

Hair loss really only relates to T levels and then only for those who have the genetic disposition for that.

Please create your own thread and provides lots of information as well as your lab work with lab ranges.