Combining SS and Hypertrophy, Bad Idea?

Bigger Stronger Leaner
41

The advantage of the Double Progression system is that you literally have 2 ways forward. You add to one thing, then you add to the other thing. This way, you can make the individual increases in the load smaller. And use this to draw the process out longer. This is why they say you are “milking the gains” when you use a double progression system.

Remember, when you are on 5/3/1, you are progressing linearly. Next week, you’ll be lifting more weight than this week. In three weeks time, when you repeat this weeks workouts, the weights will be heavier, and you’ll do more reps.

42

Okay, it’s getting less muddy. But, to be clear, the examples I gave aren’t mine. I have my squat training max at 245 right now recovering from some back issues. But, to make it more relevant, I’m in my first week of my second 5/3/1 cycle. Are these cycles periods, or are the weeks periods, or both?

I need to continue my reading so I can get a better feeling for the big picture. Rip talks about stress events and recovery periods in PPST and I automatically connected it to SS but realize he’s just talking about Selye’s theory of adaptation.

Either way, I’ve got a little information overload but I’m not letting it effect my own training - I’m just doing 5/3/1 with FSL in 5’s week and Joker sets in my 1’s week, and some associated accessory work - so I don’t have to think about it for now. I’m only in my second cycle after nine weeks of SS and eight weeks of MMS so my training age for this shit is very young - a lot of dicking around for thirty years prior, but pretty new otherwise. I don’t think I’ll have to worry about programming myself for a long time but it’s all very interesting to me.

43

Different people/coaches are going to have different jargon.

In my mind, each 5/3/1 three week cycle is a “Wave.” The first three weeks, you work your way through all the different sessions. During the next three week “wave” to try to surpass what you did in the first wave. So week 1 will be 5’s week with Jokers. During the next “wave,” your 4th week will again be 5’s week, with Jokers. Ideally, you’ll do more reps, 5 pounds higher, and then do your Jokers a little heavier, or whatever.

After 2 cycles of the 5/3/1 scheme, or 2 three week waves, you’ll change things up. That “period” or block or mesocycle or whatever you want to call it has come to an end.

You could then switch to 5’s Pro, with Boring But Big for awhile. You’d use your training max, calculated from your Pr sets, and Wendler’s percentages. so there would be no guess work. Then you’d progress in a different way for awhile.

All of this is optional. None of these ideas or terms are mandatory. Its just useful to have some kind of way to get your head around this stuff. The more specific you can be, the easier it is to make sure you keep the important stuff in your program.

Some dudes do this real naturally.

Arnold power lifted for awhile. Then he Olympic lifted for awhile. Then he was a body builder. During one period of time, he focused on his upper chest. During another period of time, he worked on his calves. But no matter what he focused on, he always also had big guns and a wide back.

He got up at 5 in the morning, to do 1000 pound calf raises with Reg Park. This way, they wouldn’t have to waste time in their real training sessions with that stuff.

He did front squats, after squats to hit his quads more. As a tall dude, he used front squats as “special exercise” after squatting to hit a weakness.

After he worked up, pyramid style on the bench press for awhile, he switched and made big jumps to a top weight for awhile.

He called it “muscle confusion.”

44

Alright, I have something to add. The first is from Essentials of Strength Training and Conditioning.

“To promote long term training and performance improvements, the strength and conditioning professional should include preplanned, systematic variations in training specificity, intensity, and volume, organized in periods, or cycles, within an overall program. This program design strategy is called periodization.”

  • Essentials of Strength Training and Conditioning

However, a slightly different take is offered by Rippetoe and Andy Baker.

"Typically, the manner in which periodization controls volume and intensity - and therefore the degree of stress placed on the body - is by dividing the training period into periods whose length and load characteristics vary according to the level of the trainee.

“Although properly executed simple linear progression produces rapid progress without overtraining in the early stages, for more advanced trainees more complex programming - periodization - is necessary.”

_Practical Programming for Strength Trainin_g, 3rd Edition

I figure @FlatsFarmer is right with [quote=“FlatsFarmer, post:43, topic:217795”]
Different people/coaches are going to have different jargon.
[/quote]

For the record, I do not believe either of the works cited should be considered “The Authority” on training or periodization. I just offer the excerpts for consideration.

45

Basically yes when I meant you need some form of periodisation,i was saying you do eventually get to a point where a variance in intensity, volume, frequency or goals need to happen. This can happen on a weekly, monthly or even yearly plan.

For example
Texas method - weekly
5-3-1 - waved over the course of 1 month
Juggernaut method - over 4 months

46

I feel bad since this thread has gotten interesting and I am away on vacation and only have my phone, but this is pretty much where I was leaning.

I thought we mighta also gone toward the cybernetic periodization silliness as well, which is why I was asking what definition we were using.

When I have a computer, I will try for more.

1 Like
47

This sums it up perfectly in one sentence.

1 Like
48

I forgot to cite my sources!

Everything above that wasn’t from Wendler, was from chapter 1 of “The Development of Physical Strength,” by Anthony Ditillo, 1982.

Arnold stuff was from “The Blueprint”? a video someone posted here.

49

What is periodization? It is a systematic program that divides a year of training into smaller, easy-to-plan phases.
-Tudor Bompa, “The Periodization of Bodybuilding”

You must plan, test and monitor your workouts according to your training capacity and your recorded strength levels. If you add to this monitoring proper rest and a good diet plan, you not only replace the energy, but you may even exceed your initial level. “Overcompensation” is defined as the additional reserves built up by the body as it rebounds past the initial strength level. You reflect this positive state by increasing your training efficiency; in other words, you demonstrate good adaptation by your ability to lift greater loads. This extremely positive overcompensation effect is the foundation for improving your performance in training.

Lack of planning can cause you to fail to adapt to a weight load, which will result in stagnation. Sooner or later you’ll experience a high level of fatigue and energy drain due to this lack of adaptation, and overtraining is sure to follow. Many bodybuilders quit the sport, at least temporarily, until the signs and symptoms of overtraining are gone and regeneration is accomplished. Bodybuilders often use mental visualization to overcome the onset of overtraining, and this may help initially, but sooner or later the body burns out.

This cycle of overtraining will begin again as soon as the trainee starts using the same training methods that caused him or her to quit, because the system just doesn’t work in the long run.

-Tudor Bompa and Fred Coch, from “Overcompensation”

50

Fun Fact!

Here is what happened to the guy who invented progressive gradual overload;

The death of Milo of Crotona was almost more spectacular than his life.

The tale goes that, while walking along in the woods, he happened upon a wedge that was hammered into a tree stump by a long-departed woodsman who had apparently felt that splitting the stump was too great a task. This presented Milo with a challenge. So there, in the darkness of the forest, he tried to split the stump with his bare hands. As the wedge fell to the ground, the powerful Greek champion’s hands became caught in the crack in the stump. Unable to free himself, he was eventually devoured alive by the wild beasts of the darkness.

-Franco Columbu and Dick Tyler

I love doing scholarly research!

51

I have researched and debated so many programs and I have came to a couple conclusions:

*These apply to me as a natural lifter, goals being; get stronger, get bigger, feel better, be healthier.

  1. Everything works for a bit. This is echoed by many, Dan John comes to mind but just about anything works for 6 weeks.
  2. That being said, you’re smarter than that and want a perfect program (there’s no such thing, but there’s something close). My idea of a perfect program for me would be:
  • frequency of workouts every other day or 3x/week
  • a balanced load, volume and intensity that allows for stress, recovery and growth
  • being as functional and efficient in said lifts as possible
  • adding weight and adding reps (lifting heavy weights for high reps)

This is pretty much 5/3/1.

Every single time I sabotage myself and start thinking about other programs, I end up right back at 5/3/1 because it accommodates everything I would want from training.

The best way to go about it is to follow the program exactly. Go 5’s progression for 2 cycles and then over to 5/3/1 for 2.

52

Exactly Bro!

These dudes already did the research and the hard work for us! Just follow Wendler, he’ll teach you this stuff.

When somebody says, “Just Do 5/3/1,” this is why!

After 12 weeks, you’ll be up to speed and on the cutting edge! All the sudden, all your “instincts” about training will be better.