T Nation

Combine Deca and Var?


#1

Hello Everyone,

I am 6'2', 270, about 20% body fat. I have done two 10 weeks deca cycles in the past and Var 40mg ED for 6 weeks.

The cycle I am proposing and asking about here is not for getting 'hyyoooge' but rather to get some nice strength gains that will last well beyond my cycle [forever :slightly_smiling: ]. My question is about where the Var goes. Some people say at the end to help 'harden the gains' while others suggest starting with Var and Deca at the same time for some reason or another. Here is the cycle without the Var.

Week 1-10 Deca 250 mg
Week 3-10 Test Cyp 100mg (to help with the lethargy)
Week 9-11 HCG 1500 IU every 3 days (total 6000 IU)
Week 12-13 HCG 1500 IU every 6 days (total 3000 IU)
Week 11-12 Nolva 40mg ED
Week 12-13 Nolva 20mg ED

I want to add 60-80mg Var per day for 4-6 weeks somewhere in this cycle. Any suggestions/insults?


#2

If your goal is not to get hyoooge and just to get some nice strength gains then I question your use of deca at all, especially at that low of a dose. Deca isn’t really known for strength gains. At that dose I am afraid you will just be shutting yourself down for nothing.

Why not a simple 6 week cycle of Var at the doses you suggested? You will certainly recover better and should have some nice maintainable strength gains. Take off 6 weeks and do it again. Either way you come out ahead of your proposed cycle.


#3

Well, I do want to get bigger and stronger, just not obscenely huge. I had great strength gains with Deca before, so Im surprised to hear you say that. My shoulder press went from 200 to 235 FAST! My most recent cycle was just Var and Im looking for something more next go round. I understand Deca and Var are exceptional in their ability to create lasting gains, is that right?


#4

Any AAS protocol when run correctly (except the noobie favorite oral only cycles with a Novedex PCT) can yield lasting gains IMO. Have no exp with deca and plan never to. I’ve become a fan of more androgenic substances. As for anavar, I consider to be overpriced and considered a female bodybuilder’s choice. As for your cycle, are those your weekly dosages? If so you need to go back to the drawing board.

-Turbo


#5

For nice strength gains I would go with test and tren and dbol.


#6

Yes, those are weekly dosages. When you say I have to go back to the drawing board, are referring to making the test dosage twice the deca? I think that is more for a body builder type stack, I dont want to blow up on some huge dose of test. But if you saw something else you didnt like about it, could you enlighten me please?


#7

[quote]sevensixtwo wrote:
Yes, those are weekly dosages. When you say I have to go back to the drawing board, are referring to making the test dosage twice the deca? I think that is more for a body builder type stack, I dont want to blow up on some huge dose of test. But if you saw something else you didnt like about it, could you enlighten me please?[/quote]

Yeah you don’t want to end up looking like King Coleman after one cycle. The way AAS manifest themselves is entirely user specific. 100mg/week of test c will yield nothing IMO. I would go back and read the stickies so you can draft a proper cycle.


#8

“I want to take steroids but I don’t want to add too much muscle. That would be very unseemly. So I want to just put my toe in the water so far as gains go, while still shutting down my HPTA. How do you like my cycle?”

(Paraphrased.)


#9

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
“I want to take steroids but I don’t want to add too much muscle. That would be very unseemly. So I want to just put my toe in the water so far as gains go, while still shutting down my HPTA. How do you like my cycle?”

(Paraphrased.)[/quote]

Ya know, just get my beak wet. lmao! golden!


#10

I’m trying to read between the lines here. I seems like you are seeking a moderate boost in the gym while while not becoming a raging bull like the common stereotype. I can relate. I am of course quite new to the world of AAS so take my advise with a grain of salt. That being said, for your specific goals I’d go with a simple 500 mg a week, 10 week cycle of TEST E/C to see how you do. I’d say don’t hurry into this. I believe it’s good to find out how you react to one compound at a time. I think you might just be quite happy with this cycle. Don’t forget the AI/SERM. Let me/us know how you do. Walk before you run bro…like anything, learn the fundamentals.

Mike


#11

And don’t use HCG in the way stated.


#12

[quote]mgern527 wrote:
I’m trying to read between the lines here. I seems like you are seeking a moderate boost in the gym while while not becoming a raging bull like the common stereotype.[/quote] I’ve never met a AAS user that acted like this stereotype. Increased aggression is a given, but most mature users know this an modify their behaviors accordingly. [quote]I can relate. I am of course quite new to the world of AAS so take my advise with a grain of salt. That being said, for your specific goals I’d go with a simple 500-750 mg (cause of your size) a week, 10 week cycle of TEST E/C to see how you do. I’d say don’t hurry into this. I believe it’s good to find out how you react to one compound at a time. I think you might just be quite happy with this cycle. Don’t forget the AI/SERM. Let me/us know how you do. Walk before you run bro…like anything, learn the fundamentals.

Mike [/quote]

All in all bro try not to go around spreading the notion that users that run heavy dosages are “raging bulls”.

-Turbo


#13

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
“I want to take steroids but I don’t want to add too much muscle. That would be very unseemly. So I want to just put my toe in the water so far as gains go, while still shutting down my HPTA. How do you like my cycle?”

(Paraphrased.)[/quote]

Oh, I see. Since when is shutting my HPTA down a terrible big deal and not just a side effect to be remedied with some good PCT? Ive seen my friends blow up on Dbol and Test and then be nearly back to square one after their cycle despite continued nutrition and exercise. My understanding is that generally Deca and Var gains are more modest and more long term.

Regarding my PCT, Im skeptical of the suggestion to take 250 IU EOD simply based off the way it’s manufactured. It comes in single use 1500 IU vials. Every other product out on the market needs to be taken in greater quantity than it is manufactured, but HCG is special and needs to be taken in one sixth dosage? I know the argument about the possibility of desensitizing the LH receptors, but is just 6 intelligently timed 1500 IU shots gonna do this? Im reluctant to believe that for some reason.

I appreciate the input and enjoy the insults. Thanks!


#14

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
“I want to take steroids but I don’t want to add too much muscle. That would be very unseemly. So I want to just put my toe in the water so far as gains go, while still shutting down my HPTA. How do you like my cycle?”

(Paraphrased.)[/quote]

Let me paraphrase myself. I am a martial artist and if I blow up on 600mg of Test my muscular mitochondrial density is going to drop out through the floor and my cardio will turn into a pile of rusty nutsacks. I’m sure I don’t need to remind anyone that mito growth follows hypertrophy by 4-8 weeks. Most 270 pounders like myself who are interested in juice are not interested in cardio so there is a general lack of info for what Im looking for.

It’s not that the muscle is unseemly, it’s that weight lifting is not my primary sport and I need to be able train efficiently in my art while on the gear, ie: maximize strength gains while keeping my mitochondrial density decent (ie: low dose Deca? No?). Then I want to keep as much as I can so I can cycle less frequently and keep my mito density high and stable.

Giant gorilla muscles: NO!
Ungodly retarded gorilla strength: YES!
Some reasonable cycle that balances these priorities: YES!


#15

[quote]sevensixtwo wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
“I want to take steroids but I don’t want to add too much muscle. That would be very unseemly. So I want to just put my toe in the water so far as gains go, while still shutting down my HPTA. How do you like my cycle?”

(Paraphrased.)

Let me paraphrase myself. I am a martial artist and if I blow up on 600mg of Test my muscular mitochondrial density is going to drop out through the floor and my cardio will turn into a pile of rusty nutsacks. I’m sure I don’t need to remind anyone that mito growth follows hypertrophy by 4-8 weeks. Most 270 pounders like myself who are interested in juice are not interested in cardio so there is a general lack of info for what Im looking for.

It’s not that the muscle is unseemly, it’s that weight lifting is not my primary sport and I need to be able train efficiently in my art while on the gear, ie: maximize strength gains while keeping my mitochondrial density decent. Then I want to keep as much as I can so I can cycle less frequently and keep my mito density high and stable.

Giant gorilla muscles: NO!
Ungodly retarded gorilla strength: YES!
Some reasonable cycle that balances these priorities: YES![/quote]

Seek Shugart. He will show you the way…


#16

[quote]BenceJones wrote:
If your goal is not to get hyoooge and just to get some nice strength gains then I question your use of deca at all, especially at that low of a dose. Deca isn’t really known for strength gains. At that dose I am afraid you will just be shutting yourself down for nothing.

Why not a simple 6 week cycle of Var at the doses you suggested? You will certainly recover better and should have some nice maintainable strength gains. Take off 6 weeks and do it again. Either way you come out ahead of your proposed cycle.
[/quote]

Actually - having used deca with proviron for a few cycles… from 200-400mg this isnt entirely true.

8-10 weeks of 250mg deca, with plenty of protein will EASILY get the user a good 15lbs, which unlike Test will be accompanied with very little fat and water.
Strenmgth will also be increased somewhat - not as much as an Equal dose of dbol, but in my experience 200mg of Deca will increase strength akin to 200mg of Trenbolone. (Tren will blow deca out of the water at 350-450mg however).

Deca is a decent drug for the results he is asking for. Not to mention the gains are very maintainable post cycle IME.

I however, am not a fan of those who use AAS for anything other than either sports related goals or to be very muscular, anything less is achievable without, and an example of laziness.

Diet and consistent trainig is key - train like you are using (ie. dont miss a session, and eat tons of proptein and manage carbs/fat) and you will be surprised at the results.

That said, i am aware that some men have terrible genes and even after 5 years of training they hit 35 and are still under 200lbs, 6’ and skinny-fat.
I am not surprised when they turn to drugs in all honesty.

ALL THAT SAID OP, you need to be made aware that Deca will cause a very severe suppression of the HPTA - and further to that it will also suppress the libido as well - often even after recovery is achieved!

It is always recommended by myself (especially after a number of cycles similar to yours plus using deca on a number of occassions with test and other AAS…) that Nandrolone users use Cabergoline too… I cant stress that enough. It will make Deca a ver pleasanty drug indeed, the results are worth it, but the libido drop often isnt, caber will avoid this problem - even cure it if need be.

JMO

Brook


#17

To add to my post - after reading some of the varied opinions above:

Here is a cycle that will give lean mass that will be easier to maintain but massive strength increases.

Cycle 1
Wk1-8 Nandrolone Decanoate 300mg (150mg 2x/wk) - Frontload w/ 450mg first injection.
Wk1-10 Drostanolone Propionate 420mg (60mg ED or 120mg EOD)
Wk1-10 Cabergoline 1mg (0.5mg 2x/wk)
Wk11+12 Tamoxifen 40mg/day
Wk13+14 Tamoxifen 20mg/day

OR

Cycle 2
Wk1-10 Trenbolone Acetate 350mg (50mg ED)
Wk1-10 Drostanolone Propionate 420mg (60mg ED or 120mg EOD)
Wk1-8 Boldenone Undeclynate 400mg/wk (200mg 2x/wk) - Frontload w/ 600mg first injection.
Wk11+12 Tamoxifen 40mg/day
Wk13+14 Tamoxifen 20mg/day

Cycle 1
This cycle keeps the Deca as it is beneficial to tendon strength, and does give the gains you are looking for - but adds masteron - so you get musch more strength, no extra water and plenty of DHT for mood and sex drive.
The caber is included to keep prolactin levels low - this is a muct IMO.

Cycle 2
This one uses trenbolone, is has all the benefits of deca, but is better - more anabolic, less water, more strength and little prolactin issues.
It will likely reduce endurane quickly however, but it has been reported that the addition of masteron helps this - and as an asthmatic, this is also the case for me so fell confident in recommending it.
Finally i added boldenone to this cycle, at this dose it will assist a little extra anabolism, but with little (but zero noticeable) aromatisation. It has a positive effect on connective tissues - which will be a plus for the explosive type of training you do.

That said, i think that var and deca will be a nice cycle for you - mild strength increases (i’d add masteron), some size, little water or estrogen, connective tissue strengthening, joint protection… JUST ADD CABERGOLINE!!

JMO

:wink:


#18

Edit: Post deleted. Covered fully by Brooke…


#19

Excellent outlines on behalf of Brook


#20

[quote]sevensixtwo wrote:
Regarding my PCT, Im skeptical of the suggestion to take 250 IU EOD simply based off the way it’s manufactured. It comes in single use 1500 IU vials. Every other product out on the market needs to be taken in greater quantity than it is manufactured, but HCG is special and needs to be taken in one sixth dosage? I know the argument about the possibility of desensitizing the LH receptors, but is just 6 intelligently timed 1500 IU shots gonna do this? Im reluctant to believe that for some reason.
[/quote]

This is a ridiculous, poorly researched, and poorly thought out position.