College Conspiracy

Off Topic
21

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]csulli wrote:
So if a 4 year college isn’t primarily about job training, but you must have at least a 4 year degree to gain access to most high paying jobs, what in fact is the point?
[/quote]
How about being a well-rounded, educated person who can speak properly and knows how to think? Can carry on a conversation with adults and come off as an adult? Can look to history to make the right decisions on important matters? Can think abstractly and critically? Can understand the value of things which cannot be measured in dollars? Can walk without dragging his knuckles?

All of those things are helpful when trying to get and keep a high paying job. For some strange reason people today devalue literature, arts and philosophy when the Founding Fathers, who some believe were the best this nation produced, saw value in them. [/quote]

Calling bullshit. Speaking properly has much more do with the quality of home and peer mastery of the english language, it has little to do with college. This is why native speakers are always better than ESOL kids. This is why to become fluent in a language you need to spend time in the country that speaks that language.

Writing does not fair much better. Most kids get through college with modest writing skills at best. Most college kids never learn to write well and its only getting worse. There are large numbers of middle schoolers with better writing than many college grads.

Being “well rounded” and “knowing how to think” are the amorphous qualities that college uses to sell its BS when 1) the value of such cannot be easily defined and 2) because the value cannot be easily defined, the students see no value in seriously studying history or literature and as a result never get a damn thing out of it. They see school as another hoop to jump through and just do what it takes to get the grade. Most of the kids will never read the assigned books and projects anyway.

22

I’m siding with the first person who gives me solid research

23

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]csulli wrote:
So if a 4 year college isn’t primarily about job training, but you must have at least a 4 year degree to gain access to most high paying jobs, what in fact is the point?
[/quote]
How about being a well-rounded, educated person who can speak properly and knows how to think? Can carry on a conversation with adults and come off as an adult? Can look to history to make the right decisions on important matters? Can think abstractly and critically? Can understand the value of things which cannot be measured in dollars? Can walk without dragging his knuckles?

All of those things are helpful when trying to get and keep a high paying job. For some strange reason people today devalue literature, arts and philosophy when the Founding Fathers, who some believe were the best this nation produced, saw value in them. [/quote]
But do I sound like an idiot? Don’t answer that :wink:

I was able to speak properly before college, and I surely didn’t learn to behave like an adult there! I recall being told often in college that I was being taught to “think abstractly and critically”. However I never remember lacking that ability in the first place. I also heard the term “well-rounded” quite frequently. I always found the term left a sour taste in my mouth. It has its place up through high school before you choose a “major”. Once your schooling becomes voluntary though I fail to see a need for the system to continue trying to round you out when you are trying to become highly proficient in something of your choosing. To me it simply meant being forced to waste my time engaging in activities in which I took absolutely no interest. I suppose my only gripe with “well roundedness” is that it persisted past its point of usefulness.

You’re right I’m not into literature at all. And to take things even further I find philosophy to be literally worthless. I honestly don’t know what the point of it is.

I appreciate the arts, although objectively I’m not sure what they’re really good for either. I probably only appreciate them because music is one of my biggest interests/endeavors. I was the principal horn my senior year in college. In fact that reminds me of something I forgot to mention in my original post. I do admit that I’m grateful to college for providing a rare opportunity to play in a fine orchestra and other musical groups for four years. Other than that though I’m pretty bitter about the resources, tangible and otherwise, that I felt forced to surrender to college.

I’ll concede that you have me on a couple things though. I can see the value in history I suppose for recognizing the future. I’m sure that’s a weakness of mine. If only I hadn’t found it all so insanely boring.

Also I benched for years without so much as a cursory thought for my shoulder mobility and now they are quite anteriorly rotated, so walking without dragging my knuckles takes a good deal of effort :wink:

24

My wife has a BFA degree (fine arts, theater…) and has worked in banking and insurance for years. She was a VP of a bank in NYC for 4 years. She did work her way up as a teller and now has just about any insurance license under the sun.

My current job, also worked my way up, I had to have that Engineering degree in order to advance.

Rob

25

My brother went and got his bachelor’s degree, and when he graduated had a hard time landing a $12/hr job. Could be worse, if he’d stuck with his original choice of a “Music” degree, rather than switching to a business one.

26

[quote]challer1 wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]csulli wrote:
So if a 4 year college isn’t primarily about job training, but you must have at least a 4 year degree to gain access to most high paying jobs, what in fact is the point?
[/quote]
How about being a well-rounded, educated person who can speak properly and knows how to think? Can carry on a conversation with adults and come off as an adult? Can look to history to make the right decisions on important matters? Can think abstractly and critically? Can understand the value of things which cannot be measured in dollars? Can walk without dragging his knuckles?

All of those things are helpful when trying to get and keep a high paying job. For some strange reason people today devalue literature, arts and philosophy when the Founding Fathers, who some believe were the best this nation produced, saw value in them. [/quote]

Calling bullshit. Speaking properly has much more do with the quality of home and peer mastery of the english language, it has little to do with college. This is why native speakers are always better than ESOL kids. This is why to become fluent in a language you need to spend time in the country that speaks that language.

Writing does not fair much better. Most kids get through college with modest writing skills at best. Most college kids never learn to write well and its only getting worse. There are large numbers of middle schoolers with better writing than many college grads.

Being “well rounded” and “knowing how to think” are the amorphous qualities that college uses to sell its BS when 1) the value of such cannot be easily defined and 2) because the value cannot be easily defined, the students see no value in seriously studying history or literature and as a result never get a damn thing out of it. They see school as another hoop to jump through and just do what it takes to get the grade. Most of the kids will never read the assigned books and projects anyway.[/quote]

Nope. If you do not cough up your tuition and sit through your minimum of 4 years of higher education you are forever doomed to be a knuckle dragging, mouth breathing moron whose appreciation for literature does not extend far beyond TV Guide and who is incapable of thinking coherently or forming complete sentences. True story.

Conversely, coughing up said tuition, sitting through said 4 years whilst partying your face off during your discretionary time while you repeatedly cram, regurgitate and forget various facts for an endless parade of exams virtually guarantees that you will emerge as a sophisticated, well rounded, self possessed individual with a lifelong passion for learning. Superior logic, reasoning, abstract thinking and bong making skills will all be at your command. You will find that it is quite impossible to develop any of these qualities independently, through the application of one’s own initiative. Engaging intellectually with the world around and accessing the limitless stores of information that are quite literally at your fingertips could not possibly hope to alleviate the hopeless ignorance of we, the unwashed and uneducated masses.

27

There are so many worthless classes I have taken during college, for example, philosophy, probably the worst class I have had. It was all opinion… The core curriculum at my college makes us take all these classes that I will never use again and don’t relate to my major in any way. For example, Calculus, I am an Accounting major, NOT RELEVANT in any way, shape, or form. We also have to have 9 hours of sciences, so that’s three different science classes. I have taken intro science classes and have learned what I learned in high school over again.

I am not saying college is a waste of money, I believe it is very important for anyone looking to become successful. I just believe that some classes you are forced to take at a University are utterly worthless…

28

[quote]challer1 wrote:

This is why native speakers are always better than ESOL kids. This is why to become fluent in a language you need to spend time in the country that speaks that language.

Writing does not fair much better. Most kids get through college with modest writing skills at best. Most college kids never learn to write well and its only getting worse. There are large numbers of middle schoolers with better writing than many college grads.

[/quote]

I know plenty of people for whom English is a second language that can speak and write better than most of the people I met while living in Newark, NJ. Could that be because in Newark there are fewer educated people (especially parents)?

The writing issue is because administrators, not educators, have lowered the required amount of writing that college students need to do.

And haven’t there been studies showing that kids with parents who have college degrees are more successful than those whose parents don’t have them?

29

[quote]csulli wrote:
You’re right I’m not into literature at all. And to take things even further I find philosophy to be literally worthless. I honestly don’t know what the point of it is.

I appreciate the arts, although objectively I’m not sure what they’re really good for either.

[/quote]

If philosophy is worthless you wouldn’t be posting here. This forum would not exist.

You appreciate the arts yet question what they are good for. They are good for that very reason.

I can understand the reasons why some have issues with colleges and I agree at least in part with some of them. IMO, the problem is not about the concept of a proper education or what it means to be well educated. When I read comments about the value of being educated or value in a particular subject, like philosophy, I do have to disagree with them. The USA was founded by men who could be considered not just students of philosophy (among other things) but actual philosophers. We, as westerners, think a certain way. Our concept of what it means to be human comes from philosophers, artists and writers.

Being well educated is a good thing but the problem is that universities are straying from that objective and becoming diploma factories. It’s why you have grade inflation for example. It isn’t totally their fault though as they feel pressure from those who devalue education. There is a growing feeling of anti-intellectualism in this nation. The funny thing is that people complain about how the US compares to other nations when it comes to education but does anyone think that in England kids aren’t reading Shakespeare? In Italy kids aren’t reading Dante? In Germany if you major in philosophy it’s a big deal.

30

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]csulli wrote:
You’re right I’m not into literature at all. And to take things even further I find philosophy to be literally worthless. I honestly don’t know what the point of it is.

I appreciate the arts, although objectively I’m not sure what they’re really good for either.

[/quote]

If philosophy is worthless you wouldn’t be posting here. This forum would not exist.

You appreciate the arts yet question what they are good for. They are good for that very reason.

I can understand the reasons why some have issues with colleges and I agree at least in part with some of them. IMO, the problem is not about the concept of a proper education or what it means to be well educated. When I read comments about the value of being educated or value in a particular subject, like philosophy, I do have to disagree with them. The USA was founded by men who could be considered not just students of philosophy (among other things) but actual philosophers. We, as westerners, think a certain way. Our concept of what it means to be human comes from philosophers, artists and writers.

Being well educated is a good thing but the problem is that universities are straying from that objective and becoming diploma factories. It’s why you have grade inflation for example. It isn’t totally their fault though as they feel pressure from those who devalue education. There is a growing feeling of anti-intellectualism in this nation. The funny thing is that people complain about how the US compares to other nations when it comes to education but does anyone think that in England kids aren’t reading Shakespeare? In Italy kids aren’t reading Dante? In Germany if you major in philosophy it’s a big deal. [/quote]
So did you agree with the rest of my post?

I kinda get what you’re saying about this forum not existing without “philosophy”, but that’s really just philosophy in the sense that it’s a system of individualized beliefs that everyone lives by. I mean it’s impossible not to have that. I think philosophy as a subject and as a pursuit is… I don’t want to say worthless at the risk of offending someone who is a “philosopher” (whatever that means), but I honestly have no idea what it’s good for. Philosophy as a subject has always seemed to me to be just a bunch of people pontificating on nebulous ideas while not actually accomplishing anything. I’m not grasping what about philosophy is relevant to the real world.

31

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
The writing issue is because administrators, not educators, have lowered the required amount of writing that college students need to do.

And haven’t there been studies showing that kids with parents who have college degrees are more successful than those whose parents don’t have them? [/quote]
Any verbal and literary ability I possess I ascribe pretty much entirely to my father’s influence and not to the school system. Now I don’t know where he got it lol, but he had an extensive vocabulary and was a good technical writer. He says it’s because he read loads of books growing up. I read virtually no books growing up. Maybe it just takes one guy to read a whole bunch of books to get the chain of literacy started in the family lol.

32

Yes, college has some flaws and yes there are some classes and expenses that dont have much practical value, but fucking LOL at anyone who doenst make more than 6 figures saying college is worthless and saving for 4 years can compound interest you into a fucking millionare. Christ that makes me giggle.

Guys I have hired and staffed and worked with head hunters in over 6 countries. You do not have a degree, you do not even get in the door. If you do not go to college and want any real world wealth you will need to become a business owner/entrepreneur/celebrity or athlete OR in the worst case senario, live like a miser and stash ever penny you have and save you way to a fake 401k millionare all while living a pomper.

If you dont get a degree, plan on beeing a business owner or professional investor or plan on not being wealthy.

33

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]csulli wrote:
You’re right I’m not into literature at all. And to take things even further I find philosophy to be literally worthless. I honestly don’t know what the point of it is.

I appreciate the arts, although objectively I’m not sure what they’re really good for either.

[/quote]

If philosophy is worthless you wouldn’t be posting here. This forum would not exist.

You appreciate the arts yet question what they are good for. They are good for that very reason.

I can understand the reasons why some have issues with colleges and I agree at least in part with some of them. IMO, the problem is not about the concept of a proper education or what it means to be well educated. When I read comments about the value of being educated or value in a particular subject, like philosophy, I do have to disagree with them. The USA was founded by men who could be considered not just students of philosophy (among other things) but actual philosophers. We, as westerners, think a certain way. Our concept of what it means to be human comes from philosophers, artists and writers.

Being well educated is a good thing but the problem is that universities are straying from that objective and becoming diploma factories. It’s why you have grade inflation for example. It isn’t totally their fault though as they feel pressure from those who devalue education. There is a growing feeling of anti-intellectualism in this nation. The funny thing is that people complain about how the US compares to other nations when it comes to education but does anyone think that in England kids aren’t reading Shakespeare? In Italy kids aren’t reading Dante? In Germany if you major in philosophy it’s a big deal. [/quote]
So did you agree with the rest of my post?

I kinda get what you’re saying about this forum not existing without “philosophy”, but that’s really just philosophy in the sense that it’s a system of individualized beliefs that everyone lives by. I mean it’s impossible not to have that. I think philosophy as a subject and as a pursuit is… I don’t want to say worthless at the risk of offending someone who is a “philosopher” (whatever that means), but I honestly have no idea what it’s good for. Philosophy as a subject has always seemed to me to be just a bunch of people pontificating on nebulous ideas while not actually accomplishing anything. I’m not grasping what about philosophy is relevant to the real world.[/quote]

Would you call the Declaration of Independence not accomplishing anything?

34

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
The writing issue is because administrators, not educators, have lowered the required amount of writing that college students need to do.

And haven’t there been studies showing that kids with parents who have college degrees are more successful than those whose parents don’t have them? [/quote]
Any verbal and literary ability I possess I ascribe pretty much entirely to my father’s influence and not to the school system. Now I don’t know where he got it lol, but he had an extensive vocabulary and was a good technical writer. He says it’s because he read loads of books growing up. I read virtually no books growing up. Maybe it just takes one guy to read a whole bunch of books to get the chain of literacy started in the family lol.[/quote]
It also took some people to actually write the books that your father found enough value in to take the time and read.

35

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]csulli wrote:
So did you agree with the rest of my post?

I kinda get what you’re saying about this forum not existing without “philosophy”, but that’s really just philosophy in the sense that it’s a system of individualized beliefs that everyone lives by. I mean it’s impossible not to have that. I think philosophy as a subject and as a pursuit is… I don’t want to say worthless at the risk of offending someone who is a “philosopher” (whatever that means), but I honestly have no idea what it’s good for. Philosophy as a subject has always seemed to me to be just a bunch of people pontificating on nebulous ideas while not actually accomplishing anything. I’m not grasping what about philosophy is relevant to the real world.[/quote]

Would you call the Declaration of Independence not accomplishing anything? [/quote]
I consider it a document of law and politics. I suppose we simply have different definitions of philosophy.

36

The main problem with college in America is that it is mass marketed but the truth is that it isn’t for everyone. The mass market approach dilutes the education process and mixes students who care with students who are just there because they believe they have to be there. A college degree does not mean as much when it’s something that anyone, and I mean anyone, can get (buy). It’s why, after having met people who have degrees, some have a low opinion of just what college does. But that is what many colleges want since they are in it for the money.

If high schools did their job right then a lot of the people who “need” to go to college wouldn’t have to. There is an old saying, college is where you read what you should have read in high school, or something to that effect. Some colleges actually offer non-credit remedial courses. WTF? Basic math. Introductory courses in subjects like English and history which should have been done in high school.

I tutored college students and one thing I noticed was that the ones who showed some interest in subjects that were not part of their major, the ones who cared, were also the ones who did better and were probably going to be more successful. The ones who didn’t care and questioned why learn this or that really didn’t care about much of anything. They lacked curiosity, creativity, energy, even personality. They were also satisfied with doing just enough to get that magic C.

37

[quote]csulli wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]csulli wrote:
So did you agree with the rest of my post?

I kinda get what you’re saying about this forum not existing without “philosophy”, but that’s really just philosophy in the sense that it’s a system of individualized beliefs that everyone lives by. I mean it’s impossible not to have that. I think philosophy as a subject and as a pursuit is… I don’t want to say worthless at the risk of offending someone who is a “philosopher” (whatever that means), but I honestly have no idea what it’s good for. Philosophy as a subject has always seemed to me to be just a bunch of people pontificating on nebulous ideas while not actually accomplishing anything. I’m not grasping what about philosophy is relevant to the real world.[/quote]

Would you call the Declaration of Independence not accomplishing anything? [/quote]
I consider it a document of law and politics. I suppose we simply have different definitions of philosophy.[/quote]
And the people who we consider the best examples when it comes to expressing and creating law and politics, the Greeks and Romans, were also the people who valued philosophy and created much of it. You can’t have law and politics minus philosophy.

38

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
The main problem with college in America is that it is mass marketed but the truth is that it isn’t for everyone. The mass market approach dilutes the education process and mixes students who care with students who are just there because they believe they have to be there. A college degree does not mean as much when it’s something that anyone, and I mean anyone, can get (buy). It’s why, after having met people who have degrees, some have a low opinion of just what college does. But that is what many colleges want since they are in it for the money.

If high schools did their job right then a lot of the people who “need” to go to college wouldn’t have to. There is an old saying, college is where you read what you should have read in high school, or something to that effect. Some colleges actually offer non-credit remedial courses. WTF? Basic math. Introductory courses in subjects like English and history which should have been done in high school. [/quote]
100% agree with this. It used to be that high school was the baseline and a college degree was something special. Nowadays a 4 year college degree is becoming pretty much baseline. You need a masters or higher level degree to accomplish the same thing that an undergraduate degree achieved just a few years ago.

39

[quote]zecarlo wrote:
I tutored college students and one thing I noticed was that the ones who showed some interest in subjects that were not part of their major, the ones who cared, were also the ones who did better and were probably going to be more successful. The ones who didn’t care and questioned why learn this or that really didn’t care about much of anything. They lacked curiosity, creativity, energy, even personality. They were also satisfied with doing just enough to get that magic C. [/quote]
I think I got lucky that school came kinda naturally to me, because I was DEFINITELY one of those kids who “didn’t care and questioned why learn this”. I saw my questioning as critical thinking and not drinking the koolaid though lol. On the classes I didn’t care about I would find the absolute minimum effort required to get a B and just do that.

For a few of them all I had to do was show up on the first day, show up to take the midterm, and show up to take the final. 3 days out of the semester for a B lol. The system rewarded me for this behavior! School was constantly rewarding me for not working and then once I joined the work force lo and behold I have the shittiest work ethic ever! That’s one thing I wish they’d have taught me in school instead of the history of ancient western civilizations lol.

40

Can we tag the benefits/negatives of FAFSA onto this?