Coffee before fasted-state cardio?

Bigger Stronger Leaner Competitive Bodybuilding
21

You are mentioning studies which are not studies regarding exercise when I referenced 4 studies that show substrate utilization during and after exercise remains unaffected when a meal is consumed prior to exercise (in the presense of insulin).

Now, as far as the meal timing thing, I’m the type of person who doesn’t know what he’s doing from one hour to the next; life would be boring if I did. I don’t think my meal lack of planning P/F meals to precede every time I decide to get off my ass and actually do something is affecting my progress. I plan my meals around my exercise sessions and the time of day. If you have some low intensity activity planned in advance, then sure, go ahead and try to minimize insulin, but it’s not going to make a substantial difference unless you are doing it every day or at least very frequently (and if you are, you should be taking this into account as it is part of your daily routine, anyway).

22

You guys are truly head bangers :wink:

23

J-Rule, thanks for the comments, I really appreciate the interaction and getting your opinions and knowledge bombs.

To comment on your first paragraph regarding the methodology, I agree. However, isn’t everything (outside of rest/lying down) just a different degree of “exercise?”

I was discussing the inhibition of lipolysis (during exercise) in the presence of insulin with my professor earlier this week. Depending on the intensity of (aerobic) exercise, insulin levels can return to fasting levels anywhere from five (i.e. high-intensity) to fifteen (i.e. moderate-intensity) minutes. However, he argued that the effects of insulin on the muscle would be much longer-lasting (i.e. lipolysis inhibition). Just because plasma levels are back to baseline does not necessarily equate to metabolism that mimics the fasted state.

J-Rule, before I go on, I think it important for me to clarify that I’m not arguing with you or questioning your beliefs. I’m trying to understand why there’s such a discrepancy in beliefs and why it’s so generally accepted that insulin inhibits lipolysis.

In regards to your final statements commenting on meal timing, I’ve got some comments, as well. What (unplanned) activities might you do that would use carbohydrate as fuel preferentially? Most bodbybuilders do very little activities outside of their actual training that would depend primarily on glucose. Unless you’re working some strenuous manual labor, then most times of the day (outside of your training session) would be primarily dependent on fatty acids. All I’m trying to say is that most people can maximize fat utilization by consuming carbs in the time around training and fats during the other periods of the day.

Sorry for taking up so much space, J-Rule. Man, I feel like SRS;-) (SRS, I hope you caught that, buddy; you know I enjoy every single word you write). Anyway, I don’t mean to ruffle feathers, just to continue what I feel is an important and interesting conversation.

24

I was discussing the inhibition of lipolysis (during exercise) in the presence of insulin with my professor earlier this week. Depending on the intensity of (aerobic) exercise, insulin levels can return to fasting levels anywhere from five (i.e. high-intensity) to fifteen (i.e. moderate-intensity) minutes. However, he argued that the effects of insulin on the muscle would be much longer-lasting (i.e. lipolysis inhibition). Just because plasma levels are back to baseline does not necessarily equate to metabolism that mimics the fasted state.

 I'm just  going by what the studies found, and that is no difference in substrate utilization during exercise.

J-Rule, before I go on, I think it important for me to clarify that I’m not arguing with you or questioning your beliefs. I’m trying to understand why there’s such a discrepancy in beliefs and why it’s so generally accepted that insulin inhibits lipolysis.

 Because people are basing things on rest, and are not aware or accepting of the literature done regarding exercise.  Keep in mind that I am talking about planned activities.  At very low intensities, fat utilization will be affected.

In regards to your final statements commenting on meal timing, I’ve got some comments, as well. What (unplanned) activities might you do that would use carbohydrate as fuel preferentially? Most bodbybuilders do very little activities outside of their actual training that would depend primarily on glucose. Unless you’re working some strenuous manual labor, then most times of the day (outside of your training session) would be primarily dependent on fatty acids. All I’m trying to say is that most people can maximize fat utilization by consuming carbs in the time around training and fats during the other periods of the day.

 I agree.  I consume my P/C meals at breakfast, my pre/post workout drink, and the whole food meal 1 1/2-2 hours after my training.  I don't think you need to get more complex than this, however.  And yes, I have started to consume a P/C breakfast before my HIIT based on the findings of the available literature.
25

J-Rule, I just have to add another thought or two to the pot of goods.

I realize that I have really overlooked one very important matter that’s primary to the original poster’s second argument/proposition. That is, substrate metabolism during exercise.

This is a point that you and I are in complete harmony over, however, I have not made my stance clear on it in this thread, in my attempt to explain physiology.

That is, what does it really matter if you’re burning fat or carbohydrate during your aerobics? Energy expenditure during cardio is not the primary focus. It’s the fact that you’re creating a caloric deficit and elevating your metabolism for hours afterwards when fat will be mobilized for fuel use.

Now, if you’re doing low-intensity aerobics, then I think the fuel use matters. Simply because you’re not going to get that elevated metabolic effect that you would from high-intensity or interval training.

I’m still pretty firm in my belief, though, that insulin inhibits lipolysis, which is the main point I’ve been trying to convey.

26

Joel, you mentioned that you eat a P+C breakfast, I assume this is before your HIIT? If so, how long do you wait after eating to do your HIIT? Just curious, as I’m a little gun shy about eating anything before I work out. I work out first thing in the morning, before leaving for work. If I’m doing HIIT, I’ll eat right afterwards (P+C). If I’m weight training, I’ll drink something like Surge or Gatorade + whey isolate during, and then drink an MRP afterwards. My main goal right now is fat loss.

27

TimL,

Generally about a 1/2 hour. I too used to wait until after training, but it the studies I mentioned all showed that substrate utilization both during and after exercise remained unaffected when consuming a carb containing meal before exercise of higher intensities.

Joel

28

Thought this might apply here as well.

I typically employ an ECA stack or some caffeine (>550mg) prior to any fasted state cardio. Of course the nature of the cardio is of the utmost importance as Joel and others point out. At any rate, I do notice improved ketosis following moderate doses of caffeine…as measured by keto sticks.

Here is why I suggest no carbs post-workout, particularly on an established keto diet

The finding that endurance-trained individuals have elevated fat utilization in the resting state (1, 2) has raised the possibility that exercise can produce an overall increase in fat oxidation, particularly in the postexercise state. This effect is particularly relevant for obesity-prone individuals who are known to have reduced fat oxidation after weight reduction (3).

Bielinski et al (4) studied energy expenditure and substrate oxidation in the postexercise recovery period using whole-body indirect calorimetry. They showed that 17 h after a 3-h exercise session at 50% of maximal oxygen consumption ( O2max) there was a 4.7% increase in resting energy expenditure and a significant decrease in respiratory quotient (RQ). Other studies also showed a persisting increase in metabolic rate after exercise bouts of different durations and intensities (5, 6) as well as reduced RQs (5, 7, 8). Conversely, Weststrate et al (7) did not find any effect of exercise on resting metabolic rate (RMR) 12 h after a 90-min exercise bout at 25?35% of O2max. These results may be related to an exercise intensity that was too low, as shown previously (6).

The enhancement in fat oxidation after exercise reflected by the decrease in RQ may be secondary to the glycogen depletion and to the acute negative energy balance induced by the exercise stimulus. It is possible then that the reduced carbohydrate availability promotes a shift from glucose to fat oxidation. To verify this hypothesis, Calles-Escandon et al (9) submitted 21 subjects to one of four 10-d treatments: 1) control, 2) overfeeding, 3) exercise, and 4) overfeeding and exercise. They found that after an exercise session at 50% of maximal oxygen consumption representing 50% of daily RMR, fat oxidation increased at rest independently of a postexercise dietary compensation matching the cost of exercise.

According to the classic concept developed by Randle et al (10), fat metabolism can substantially alter carbohydrate metabolism. However, little evidence has supported this concept in exercise studies. In a recent study, it was shown that fatty acid oxidation is regulated by carbohydrate metabolism via changes in blood insulin concentrations during exercise (11), probably by controlling the rate of fatty acid entry into the mitochondria (12). Thus, during recovery, the exercise-induced glycogen depletion and the decrease in circulating insulin could provoke an increase in fat oxidation by enhancing fatty acid metabolism, perhaps until carbohydrate stores are replenished. Specifically, this may mean that the substrate mix oxidized is altered in the postexercise state as long as carbohydrate balance is not restored, which seems concordant with the theory proposed by Flatt (13).

In the present study, we attempted to document this phenomenon by measuring postexercise macronutrient oxidation under conditions in which liquid supplementation compensating for the carbohydrate and lipid oxidized (over the resting rate) was provided immediately after exercise. We submitted 8 volunteers to an exercise session followed by 61 h in a respiratory chamber to measure postexercise energy expenditure and substrate oxidation.

29

There was a study posted earlier that showed an increase in EPOC w/ no change in RQ when milk and glucose was consumed post high intensity cardio. Secondly, I believe it was Berardi that said that a little bit of carbs after an intense cardio session when your muscles are dying to suck up nutrients isn’t near enough to kick you out of ketosis.

30

Oooh, I think I like this topic but I might have found it too late. I always drink coffee before I work out I need that caffeine boost. I read some of the posts and none really answered whether or not coffee helps burn body fat when drinking it in a fasted state? did I miss it, I read about it’s insulin resistant properties but don’t quite find the answer that the original question was asking? sorry for the ignorance.

Da Boxer

31

Boxer: I thank you much for allowing me to once again quote myself. I said this in my first post: [quote]“On the contrary, coffee or caffeine ingestion at this time (i.e. before fasted-state cardio or with a protein and fat meal) might actually prove beneficial. This should increase plasma free-fatty acids, and with stable insulin levels, this should bode well since the body will be primed to mobilize those fatty acids right to the muscles’ mitochondria for oxidation.”[/quote]

Vain: That’s an interesting post, but I’m going to stick with my guns and the available literature and side with Joel et al. on this one. In addition to the studies posted by Joel above, here’s one more:

Folch N. P?ronnet F, Massicotte D Duclos M, Lavoie C, Hillaire-Marcel C. Metabolic response to small and large 13C-labelled pasta meals following rest or exercise in man. Bri J. Nutri. (5) 671-680, 2001.

[quote]
These results indicate that: (1) de novo lipogenesis, which plays only a minor role for the disposal of an acute dietary carbohydrate load, is totally suppressed following exercise, even when a very large carbohydrate load is ingested; (2) the reduction in glycogen turnover as well as a preferential conversion of glucose into glycogen are responsible for the increase in glycogen stores following exercise; (3) for a similar energy expenditure, exercise at low workload for a longer period does not favour fat oxidation when the post-exercise period is taken into account.[/quote]

J Am Coll Nutr 1997 Apr;16(2):140-6 Related Articles, Links

Postexercise energy expenditure and substrate oxidation in young women resulting from exercise bouts of different intensity.

Phelain JF, Reinke E, Harris MA, Melby CL.

Department of Food Science and Human Nutrition, Colorado State University, Ft. Collins 80523, USA.

OBJECTIVE: The effects of low and high intensity exercise, of similar energy output, on exercise and post-exercise energy expenditure and substrate oxidation were studied in eight active, eumenorrheic females (aged 22 to 31). METHODS: Continuous indirect calorimetry was performed during cycle ergometry exercise and for 3 hours following each of the following three protocols administered in random order: 1) low intensity exercise (LIE: 500 calories 50% VO2 max), 2) high intensity exercise (HIE: 500 calories 75% VO2 max), and 3) control condition ? of quiet sitting for 1 hour, rather than exercise. Excess postexercise oxygen consumption (EPOC), energy expenditure and total fat and carbohydrate oxidation for the entire exercise/control plus 3-hour recovery period were determined by indirect calorimetry. RESULTS: Mean EPOC for the 3-hour post-exercise period for HIE (9.0 +/- 1.7 L, 41 kcals) was significantly greater than EPOC for low intensity exercise (4.8 +/- 1.6 L, 22 kcals). Oxygen consumption (VO2) following HIE, but not LIE remained elevated at the end of the 3-hour post-exercise period. Total carbohydrate oxidation (exercise plus postexercise period) was significantly higher for HIE (116 +/- 8.6 g) compared to LIE (85.0 +/- 5.2 g). Total fat oxidation was lower for HIE (27.7 +/- 3.3 g) compared to LIE (36.9 +/- 3.0 g), but this difference did not reach statistical significance (p = 0.07). At the end of the 3-hour recovery period, the rate of fat oxidation was higher following HIE compared to LIE. CONCLUSION: These data indicate that the recovery period should also be considered when determining the impact of different exercise intensities on total energy expenditure and fat and carbohydrate utilization in women.

So, that’s just a little evidence to support my stance. But, Vain, I cannot argue with your success:-)

Finally, the Randall Effect has been proven wrong (during exercise). Carbohydrate availability really governs substrate metabolism during exercise. However, this is of little importance because: 1. we’re normally performing high-intensity bouts of exercise, and 2. substrate utilization during exercise isn’t our primary concern.

32

Timbo Brah!
what I am primarily suggesting in my last post is that post-workout carbs are overrated, particularly if you are dieting or are going keto style…Now sure, there is tons of research to suggest increased propensity for anabolic activity following this period, but then again, during a diet, piss on the anabolic activity.

As per caffeine prior to fasted state cardio…one thing to keep in mind is timing…I do not know the timing situation in the above studies, and I’ll admit I have not reviewed them…but, caffeine, like any substance, takes time to effect the body…I would usually wait at least 45 minutes from the first drink of strong coffee until I did my fasted state cardio…what was interesting is that the fruit breath of ketosis, was much more pungent after this method than no caffeined (I personally controlled for this with a washout period in between)

Of course dosage of caffeine is a biggie…For the desired effect you might want to get up in the 550-600mg range)

Just anecdotal thoughts at this point.

Vizzain

33

V to the Izzain…Good info on caffeine timing.

Sure, carbs might be overrated on a ketogenic diet, but my honest opinion is that the real thing that’s overrated is a ketogenic diet!:slight_smile: I’m not trying to ruffle feathers, just giving my oh-so-humble opinion.

What I was trying to convey–as has Joel rather clearly–is that with proper intensity of cardio, you completely reap the benefits of fat oxidation in the hours after training, despite ingestion of large amounts of carbohydrate right away!

34

Tizzimbo

as per reaping the benefits of cardio with or without post-workout carbs…ooooohhhh, now that is an issue that can go either way…more refined research is needed…I am open to your suggestions my young colleague…however, we must keep in mind that, contrary to popular though, and even some published work, at least 55% of all CHO loads ingested are intercepted at the liver…thus, not all carbs preferentially roll thick up into the nectar of muscle tissue…thus, anything that gets the liver enzymes flowing and saturates that bad boy, is going to lead to potentiation of all kinds of anti-lipolytic effects.

Not necessarily lipogenic hear me, but anti-lipolytic.

Anyway, amount of carbs, timing, and most importantly overally calorie balance will be implicated in a big way

Vizzy