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CNS

CT - Hope holiday season is going well.

I was looking over my training log and noticed back when I trained using Hernon’s style (3 sets to failure, 80% ROM constant tension), my strength was crap. Subjectively, the top set had a high perceived effort even though poundage were lower and body never felt quite “on”.

Curious if through your training career you saw this effect and if it made you train the way you do today (ramping CNS up, achieving max performance, minimize grinding)? And there’s probably tremendous value in hitting concentric failure but you’d prefer it done after the heavy/explosive/ramping work right? (or substituted with clusters, rest-pausish kind of style)

I’m trying to see a relationship between feeling good at the gym (performance/mood) vs. low volume super high intensity in terms of physique development.

Thanks…

CT - bad/obvious question? Mod can delete…

What I can say is that extreme training, especially going deep past failure, can put a lot of stress on the adrenal glands. When those glands are “burned/drained” (adrenal burnout or simply adrenal fatigue you will start to retain water, the muscles will feel softer and you will start to have aches and pain… not to mention the mental fatigue and feeling bad overall.

Not everybody is equally sensitive to the adrenal strain caused by training to failure. Those who are more 'fragile" (I’m like that myself) will see the above symptoms much more easily, other will be able to train to failure and past without ever seeing those symptoms.

Now, is training to failure “very beneficial”… no. The key with training is that the cell signaling telling the body to initiate protein synthesis is activated. Failure doesn’t really matter in that regard.

I’m not only about very heavy and explosive lifting. I use other types of contraction to cause a training effect. Every type of contraction can be effective if used properly.

For example one could do a layering of:

  1. Slow eccentrics (5-8 seconds) for 4-6 reps (this have been shown to activate mTOR the most)
  2. High threshold work (heavy lifting)
  3. Pump work to get nutrients-rich blood into the muscles and increase GH and IGF-1 levels
  4. Loaded stretching to also increase mTOR and make the IGF-1 receptors more sensitive

But in none of these is failure necessary or even desired

CT is it true or just broscience that slow eccentrics are a good way to strengthen tendons?

[quote]mstorm wrote:
CT is it true or just broscience that slow eccentrics are a good way to strengthen tendons? [/quote]

True… they are actually used in physical therapy for tendinosis and tendinitis as well as after a tear (once it’s been fixed and healed)

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]mstorm wrote:
CT is it true or just broscience that slow eccentrics are a good way to strengthen tendons? [/quote]

True… they are actually used in physical therapy for tendinosis and tendinitis as well as after a tear (once it’s been fixed and healed)[/quote]

Good to know. I did a few cycles of slow eccentrics and noticed some good strength gains after I got used to it, as well as just feeling a little less joint stress. But I wouldn’t want to do it all the time. A layer like you mentioned above sounds like a good way to give the joints a break from heavy lifting every now and again.

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]mstorm wrote:
CT is it true or just broscience that slow eccentrics are a good way to strengthen tendons? [/quote]

True… they are actually used in physical therapy for tendinosis and tendinitis as well as after a tear (once it’s been fixed and healed)[/quote]

Back a few months ago, I developed a nasty case of lateral epicondylitis (tennis elbow) from incorrect SGHP form and trying to do too much of them too quick.

I got an MASSIVE improvement in pain and function in only 4 days using a purely eccentric training protocol to heal the tendon that attaches to the lateral epicondyle (outside of the elbow).
I used a physical therapy tool called a ‘Flexbar’ by Theraband. The exercise I used was called the ‘Tyler twist’.
After 2 weeks of intensively doing the exercise, I was about 95% fixed, no bullshit.

So yeah, in my experience, eccentrics were a lifesaver and stimulated the tendon to actually HEAL. (I’m now doing SGHP’s again with an improved grip width setup and form adjustments and no probs)
Just thought I’d share. :))

@pks
thanks for the info

[quote]PKS wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]mstorm wrote:
CT is it true or just broscience that slow eccentrics are a good way to strengthen tendons? [/quote]

True… they are actually used in physical therapy for tendinosis and tendinitis as well as after a tear (once it’s been fixed and healed)[/quote]

Back a few months ago, I developed a nasty case of lateral epicondylitis (tennis elbow) from incorrect SGHP form and trying to do too much of them too quick.

I got an MASSIVE improvement in pain and function in only 4 days using a purely eccentric training protocol to heal the tendon that attaches to the lateral epicondyle (outside of the elbow).
I used a physical therapy tool called a ‘Flexbar’ by Theraband. The exercise I used was called the ‘Tyler twist’.
After 2 weeks of intensively doing the exercise, I was about 95% fixed, no bullshit.

So yeah, in my experience, eccentrics were a lifesaver and stimulated the tendon to actually HEAL. (I’m now doing SGHP’s again with an improved grip width setup and form adjustments and no probs)
Just thought I’d share. :))
[/quote]

mind if I ask what it was in your form on the sghp that caused the elbow pain?

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
What I can say is that extreme training, especially going deep past failure, can put a lot of stress on the adrenal glands. When those glands are “burned/drained” (adrenal burnout or simply adrenal fatigue you will start to retain water, the muscles will feel softer and you will start to have aches and pain… not to mention the mental fatigue and feeling bad overall.

Not everybody is equally sensitive to the adrenal strain caused by training to failure. Those who are more 'fragile" (I’m like that myself) will see the above symptoms much more easily, other will be able to train to failure and past without ever seeing those symptoms.

Now, is training to failure “very beneficial”… no. The key with training is that the cell signaling telling the body to initiate protein synthesis is activated. Failure doesn’t really matter in that regard.

I’m not only about very heavy and explosive lifting. I use other types of contraction to cause a training effect. Every type of contraction can be effective if used properly.

For example one could do a layering of:

  1. Slow eccentrics (5-8 seconds) for 4-6 reps (this have been shown to activate mTOR the most)
  2. High threshold work (heavy lifting)
  3. Pump work to get nutrients-rich blood into the muscles and increase GH and IGF-1 levels
  4. Loaded stretching to also increase mTOR and make the IGF-1 receptors more sensitive

But in none of these is failure necessary or even desired[/quote]
i’m really surprised this didnot bring many other posts.

[quote]domcib wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
What I can say is that extreme training, especially going deep past failure, can put a lot of stress on the adrenal glands. When those glands are “burned/drained” (adrenal burnout or simply adrenal fatigue you will start to retain water, the muscles will feel softer and you will start to have aches and pain… not to mention the mental fatigue and feeling bad overall.

Not everybody is equally sensitive to the adrenal strain caused by training to failure. Those who are more 'fragile" (I’m like that myself) will see the above symptoms much more easily, other will be able to train to failure and past without ever seeing those symptoms.

Now, is training to failure “very beneficial”… no. The key with training is that the cell signaling telling the body to initiate protein synthesis is activated. Failure doesn’t really matter in that regard.

I’m not only about very heavy and explosive lifting. I use other types of contraction to cause a training effect. Every type of contraction can be effective if used properly.

For example one could do a layering of:

  1. Slow eccentrics (5-8 seconds) for 4-6 reps (this have been shown to activate mTOR the most)
  2. High threshold work (heavy lifting)
  3. Pump work to get nutrients-rich blood into the muscles and increase GH and IGF-1 levels
  4. Loaded stretching to also increase mTOR and make the IGF-1 receptors more sensitive

But in none of these is failure necessary or even desired[/quote]
i’m really surprised this didnot bring many other posts.[/quote]

As am I. Here’s what I took from it Dom:

  1. I’m not sure how many sets of eccentrics there would be and if there’s a way to incorporate them into certain lifts like the SGHP.
  2. Assuming this would include wave ladders or cluster sets
  3. Density work?

[quote]jbalplayr02 wrote:

[quote]domcib wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
What I can say is that extreme training, especially going deep past failure, can put a lot of stress on the adrenal glands. When those glands are “burned/drained” (adrenal burnout or simply adrenal fatigue you will start to retain water, the muscles will feel softer and you will start to have aches and pain… not to mention the mental fatigue and feeling bad overall.

Not everybody is equally sensitive to the adrenal strain caused by training to failure. Those who are more 'fragile" (I’m like that myself) will see the above symptoms much more easily, other will be able to train to failure and past without ever seeing those symptoms.

Now, is training to failure “very beneficial”… no. The key with training is that the cell signaling telling the body to initiate protein synthesis is activated. Failure doesn’t really matter in that regard.

I’m not only about very heavy and explosive lifting. I use other types of contraction to cause a training effect. Every type of contraction can be effective if used properly.

For example one could do a layering of:

  1. Slow eccentrics (5-8 seconds) for 4-6 reps (this have been shown to activate mTOR the most)
  2. High threshold work (heavy lifting)
  3. Pump work to get nutrients-rich blood into the muscles and increase GH and IGF-1 levels
  4. Loaded stretching to also increase mTOR and make the IGF-1 receptors more sensitive

But in none of these is failure necessary or even desired[/quote]
i’m really surprised this didnot bring many other posts.[/quote]

As am I. Here’s what I took from it Dom:

  1. I’m not sure how many sets of eccentrics there would be and if there’s a way to incorporate them into certain lifts like the SGHP.
  2. Assuming this would include wave ladders or cluster sets
  3. Density work?[/quote]
    hey jb
    hope all is well.
    well
    1 he says 4-6 sets(oops. REPS) of eccentrics
  1. is the heavy portion. Clusters or ?.??
    Otherwise it’s a 4 layer program
    SGHP…?? good question.

I have personally found that one can " vary the layer types" within a program.(hope ct doesnt get pissed at me)
so maybe one could do this 4 layer on certain days, and do other layers on other days.
After all, Ct’s layers ALL WORK.
Think about it.
Eg. Strangth Layer on Bench, HypertrophyLayer on Sghp, strength on squats. etc, etc. 2layer, 3 layer, 4 layer etc.
pick any one or group of ones.
You can’t go wrong if your goals are strength/performance yada, yada.

[quote]concepthenry wrote:

[quote]PKS wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]mstorm wrote:
CT is it true or just broscience that slow eccentrics are a good way to strengthen tendons? [/quote]

True… they are actually used in physical therapy for tendinosis and tendinitis as well as after a tear (once it’s been fixed and healed)[/quote]

Back a few months ago, I developed a nasty case of lateral epicondylitis (tennis elbow) from incorrect SGHP form and trying to do too much of them too quick.

I got an MASSIVE improvement in pain and function in only 4 days using a purely eccentric training protocol to heal the tendon that attaches to the lateral epicondyle (outside of the elbow).
I used a physical therapy tool called a ‘Flexbar’ by Theraband. The exercise I used was called the ‘Tyler twist’.
After 2 weeks of intensively doing the exercise, I was about 95% fixed, no bullshit.

So yeah, in my experience, eccentrics were a lifesaver and stimulated the tendon to actually HEAL. (I’m now doing SGHP’s again with an improved grip width setup and form adjustments and no probs)
Just thought I’d share. :))
[/quote]

mind if I ask what it was in your form on the sghp that caused the elbow pain?
[/quote]

  1. I’m a taller guy with long arms. I originally did my SGHPs from the pins inside a power rack, with the forced ‘closer’ hand placement not really being a snatch grip at all.
    As I started to use heavier and heavier weights -and thus heavier and heavier cluster sets and HDL- I got into the habit of generating too much initial pull from the blocks with a break in the elbows rather than an explosion of the hips…
  2. On the eccentric component of the lift, I wasn’t using my traps to absorb the brutal eccentric forces generated by the lift. I was using…you guessed it…my forearm muscles to do the ‘work’ of absorbing the momentum of the weight.

These two factors coupled with the high volume and frequency I was performing the lift all added up to 2 very sore elbows!

I haven’t had an issue since implementing these form changes:
-Switching to doing them with a true wide snatch grip from the hang; which helped me initiate with a hip pop rather than pull.
-Trusting the traps to pick up the eccentric load and shock rather than the arms.

Aarrgh I should have listened to CT in the early days of SGHP/Layers about doing them inside a power rack… haha would saved months of grief!

[quote]jbalplayr02 wrote:

[quote]domcib wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
What I can say is that extreme training, especially going deep past failure, can put a lot of stress on the adrenal glands. When those glands are “burned/drained” (adrenal burnout or simply adrenal fatigue you will start to retain water, the muscles will feel softer and you will start to have aches and pain… not to mention the mental fatigue and feeling bad overall.

Not everybody is equally sensitive to the adrenal strain caused by training to failure. Those who are more 'fragile" (I’m like that myself) will see the above symptoms much more easily, other will be able to train to failure and past without ever seeing those symptoms.

Now, is training to failure “very beneficial”… no. The key with training is that the cell signaling telling the body to initiate protein synthesis is activated. Failure doesn’t really matter in that regard.

I’m not only about very heavy and explosive lifting. I use other types of contraction to cause a training effect. Every type of contraction can be effective if used properly.

For example one could do a layering of:

  1. Slow eccentrics (5-8 seconds) for 4-6 reps (this have been shown to activate mTOR the most)
  2. High threshold work (heavy lifting)
  3. Pump work to get nutrients-rich blood into the muscles and increase GH and IGF-1 levels
  4. Loaded stretching to also increase mTOR and make the IGF-1 receptors more sensitive

But in none of these is failure necessary or even desired[/quote]
i’m really surprised this didnot bring many other posts.[/quote]

As am I. Here’s what I took from it Dom:

  1. I’m not sure how many sets of eccentrics there would be and if there’s a way to incorporate them into certain lifts like the SGHP.

  2. Assuming this would include wave ladders or cluster sets

  3. Density work?[/quote]

  4. 3-4 sets pf 6-8 reps with an eccentric in 6-8 seconds… it can’t be done on the SGHP

  5. Not necessarily… there is one heavy technique… it can be a ramp to a 1-3 RM OR clusters, OR simply doing heavy sets of 3-6 reps

  6. Not in this program since you are doing pump work already

Understand that when I finished building a system I’m looking to find a new way to spark growth. And both “projects” aren’t necessarily related.

JUST BECAUSE IT’S ONE OF MY PROGRAM DOESN’T MEAN THAT IT HAS TO USE ALL THE TECHNIQUES I USE IN OTHER PROGRAMS…

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]jbalplayr02 wrote:

[quote]domcib wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
What I can say is that extreme training, especially going deep past failure, can put a lot of stress on the adrenal glands. When those glands are “burned/drained” (adrenal burnout or simply adrenal fatigue you will start to retain water, the muscles will feel softer and you will start to have aches and pain… not to mention the mental fatigue and feeling bad overall.

Not everybody is equally sensitive to the adrenal strain caused by training to failure. Those who are more 'fragile" (I’m like that myself) will see the above symptoms much more easily, other will be able to train to failure and past without ever seeing those symptoms.

Now, is training to failure “very beneficial”… no. The key with training is that the cell signaling telling the body to initiate protein synthesis is activated. Failure doesn’t really matter in that regard.

I’m not only about very heavy and explosive lifting. I use other types of contraction to cause a training effect. Every type of contraction can be effective if used properly.

For example one could do a layering of:

  1. Slow eccentrics (5-8 seconds) for 4-6 reps (this have been shown to activate mTOR the most)
  2. High threshold work (heavy lifting)
  3. Pump work to get nutrients-rich blood into the muscles and increase GH and IGF-1 levels
  4. Loaded stretching to also increase mTOR and make the IGF-1 receptors more sensitive

But in none of these is failure necessary or even desired[/quote]
i’m really surprised this didnot bring many other posts.[/quote]

As am I. Here’s what I took from it Dom:

  1. I’m not sure how many sets of eccentrics there would be and if there’s a way to incorporate them into certain lifts like the SGHP.

  2. Assuming this would include wave ladders or cluster sets

  3. Density work?[/quote]

  4. 3-4 sets pf 6-8 reps with an eccentric in 6-8 seconds… it can’t be done on the SGHP

  5. Not necessarily… there is one heavy technique… it can be a ramp to a 1-3 RM OR clusters, OR simply doing heavy sets of 3-6 reps

  6. Not in this program since you are doing pump work already

JUST BECAUSE IT’S ONE OF MY PROGRAM DOESN’T MEAN THAT IT HAS TO USE ALL THE TECHNIQUES I USE IN OTHER PROGRAMS…
[/quote]

I realized very quickly that we cannot use everything you throw at us all at once. I was doing the ramp, cluster, HDL for quite a long time and am now doing wave ladders, density and loaded carries. I always want to do everything you throw at us but have realized its not possible and just not smart. But I personally thank you with blessing us with your knowledge and most importantly…helping me to look good!

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
What I can say is that extreme training, especially going deep past failure, can put a lot of stress on the adrenal glands. When those glands are “burned/drained” (adrenal burnout or simply adrenal fatigue you will start to retain water, the muscles will feel softer and you will start to have aches and pain… not to mention the mental fatigue and feeling bad overall.

Not everybody is equally sensitive to the adrenal strain caused by training to failure. Those who are more 'fragile" (I’m like that myself) will see the above symptoms much more easily, other will be able to train to failure and past without ever seeing those symptoms.

Now, is training to failure “very beneficial”… no. The key with training is that the cell signaling telling the body to initiate protein synthesis is activated. Failure doesn’t really matter in that regard.
[/quote]
This info by itself is worth the price of admission.

Yes very cool, thanks CT. I always love when he shares tidbits that you don’t find in the “mainstream”, like adrenal fatigue - water retention, “soft” muscles, etc.

Speaking of which, what do you guys think of this:
http://www.sandowplus.co.uk/Competition/Pandour/pandour.htm

Bobby Pandour - amazing rugged physique, apparently developed through intense “conraction/tension” using the mind (and a 10 lbs dumbbel which was more prop than anything). He and Sandow and other old timers who had dense muscular physiques seem to be big on this mind/muscle super contraction thing.

This supposedly was done before steroids but I’ve read some historical discrepancies. Any case, I’ve experiemnted with this (on the rings) and see some elements of truth. And practically speaking this would be easier on joints, less injury, CNS burnout or whatnot.

Legit or fairytale?

[quote]-Sigil- wrote:
Yes very cool, thanks CT. I always love when he shares tidbits that you don’t find in the “mainstream”, like adrenal fatigue - water retention, “soft” muscles, etc.

Speaking of which, what do you guys think of this:
http://www.sandowplus.co.uk/Competition/Pandour/pandour.htm

Bobby Pandour - amazing rugged physique, apparently developed through intense “conraction/tension” using the mind (and a 10 lbs dumbbel which was more prop than anything). He and Sandow and other old timers who had dense muscular physiques seem to be big on this mind/muscle super contraction thing.

This supposedly was done before steroids but I’ve read some historical discrepancies. Any case, I’ve experiemnted with this (on the rings) and see some elements of truth. And practically speaking this would be easier on joints, less injury, CNS burnout or whatnot.

Legit or fairytale? [/quote]

It WAS done before steroids or supplements. Testosterone was first synthesized in 1889 but wasn’t used to any significant degree until the 1930s in clinical settings, and the first use for improving physical performance was in the 1950s. So while “technically” testosterone was invented during Pandour’s life there is very little chance that he heard about it, much less used it.

As for his training style… he was first and foremost a gymnast. So even though he didn’t engage in heavy lifting exercises, chances are that he did a lot of body weight work that can be quite challenging. Many men built some pretty impressive physique doing bodyweight/gymnastic work. But I’m not willing to say that his “flexing” exercises caused his muscle growth.

Flexing/tension exercises can be helpful though. They improve mind-muscle connection which thus allow you to better recruit and stimulate the muscles when doing more challenging exercises.

If it did anything to “directly” improve his look, tension exercises could have improved muscle tone, that’s pretty much it.

Also do not forget that low body fat causes the illusion of size. Honestly if we put you besides Pandour, you’d look just as muscular if not more.

BTW, Sigil, you are a lot like me in that you are always looking for new ways to improve your physique and I respect and admire that.

However be careful not to jump on a bandwagon too soon (I used to do that to). Yes, Pandour had a great physique. So it’s tempting to be convinced that his type of training (flexing/tension) could be a great way to train.

But we cannot take out the facts that (1) he might have been a genetic superior in the muscularity department (in high school I had a friend called Vasco who was just as muscular as Pandour and never trained in his life, he was 190 on 5’10" and super lean) (2) his previous experience might have be the cause of his physique (i.e. he was a trained gymnast).

So if we want to find out if flexing/tension is a good way to build size we have to look if that method has produced a lot of great physiques. And it hasn’t. At least not by itself. One of the most popular training “courses” was Charles Atlas dynamic tension. Dynamic tension was pretty much the same thing that Pandour did: flexing and tensing. And while that course was financially successful (mostly because of the ads they placed in comic books, targeting young kids) nobody built a great physique with that technique, not even Charles Atlas (even though he claimed to be the world’s best built man). And the fact that you don’t see it around today also speaks volume… if something that was super widespread, just disapeared it pretty much tells me that it wasn’t that great.

holy toledo!
You made me remember. I saved my pennies from returning bottles and bought that Charles Atlas program. I used it, it helped me gain strength and shape.
i must have been 11-13 years old or something like that. yep, it was definitely before high school.
wow. the memory was buried deep in my brain somewhere.