I understand that some people are interested in the “why”/“how”, but to contest the very existence of “it” (forget about naming conventions) seems odd.
For those in doubt, maybe they should try the “Bulgarian” approach of maxing every day to experience it first hand. You know when you have “it”, trust me.
ps: For those interested in the “why”/“how”: I can imagine that “it” has similar pathways as the aftermath of abusing strong stimulants (amp, cocaine, meth, etc.).
[quote]Loftearmen wrote:
[quote]ishinator wrote:
Has any neurologist ever made mention of the effects of physical activity on the energy levels of the CNS?[/quote]
I am an electroneurodiagnostic technologist and had never heard of this concept until i began powerlifting. So, i spoke to the only person i know who knows more about neurophysiology than i do, Richard Lee, MD,FAAN,FAANEM. We deliberated the possibilities for about an hour and decisively concluded that it was broscience. There is no physiology behind the idea, it’s just some phrase that people came up with to describe when they feel weak and worn out. [/quote]
Thread over, in my opinion.
[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:
[quote]Loftearmen wrote:
[quote]ishinator wrote:
Has any neurologist ever made mention of the effects of physical activity on the energy levels of the CNS?[/quote]
I am an electroneurodiagnostic technologist and had never heard of this concept until i began powerlifting. So, i spoke to the only person i know who knows more about neurophysiology than i do, Richard Lee, MD,FAAN,FAANEM. We deliberated the possibilities for about an hour and decisively concluded that it was broscience. There is no physiology behind the idea, it’s just some phrase that people came up with to describe when they feel weak and worn out. [/quote]
Thread over, in my opinion.[/quote]
I don’t know about that. It’s such a specialized case, I doubt it’s ever been studied. Measuring CNS ability before and after a big grinding deadlift? I honestly wouldn’t expect doctors to know or care.
I think what isn’t being discussed is that total commitment to a lift and recruitment of maximum muscle fibers is a skill. I don’t know that there is necessarily something physiologically wrong with the nervous system, but that ability (at least for me) is severely diminished after intense heavy grinding reps.
It’s entirely possible it’s something more closely related to writer’s block or “momentum” in a sporting event. That mentally, it’s just hard to fully commit to a lift. But call it what you want, it’s there.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
I don’t know about that. It’s such a specialized case, I doubt it’s ever been studied. Measuring CNS ability before and after a big grinding deadlift? I honestly wouldn’t expect doctors to know or care.
I think what isn’t being discussed is that total commitment to a lift and recruitment of maximum muscle fibers is a skill. I don’t know that there is necessarily something physiologically wrong with the nervous system, but that ability (at least for me) is severely diminished after intense heavy grinding reps.
It’s entirely possible it’s something more closely related to writer’s block or “momentum” in a sporting event. That mentally, it’s just hard to fully commit to a lift. But call it what you want, it’s there.
[/quote]
I am quite confident Storm was being sarcastic 
I would assume it’s just a down cycle of hormones. You can never outlift your hormones on max, and your hormones can’t stay at their max 24/7.
[quote]Tim Henriques wrote:
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
I don’t know about that. It’s such a specialized case, I doubt it’s ever been studied. Measuring CNS ability before and after a big grinding deadlift? I honestly wouldn’t expect doctors to know or care.
I think what isn’t being discussed is that total commitment to a lift and recruitment of maximum muscle fibers is a skill. I don’t know that there is necessarily something physiologically wrong with the nervous system, but that ability (at least for me) is severely diminished after intense heavy grinding reps.
It’s entirely possible it’s something more closely related to writer’s block or “momentum” in a sporting event. That mentally, it’s just hard to fully commit to a lift. But call it what you want, it’s there.
[/quote]
I am quite confident Storm was being sarcastic ;)[/quote]
Yeah, I wasn’t sure. He didn’t use sarcastic typeface.
[quote]Tim Henriques wrote:
Here are 2 pretty well researched articles that talk about this concept:
Also all of the HRV training information that has come out lately is based around this idea that one will be more or less ready to train based primarily on how the nervous system is functioning[/quote]
Interesting reads. Are you aware of any similar research using L-Tyrosine to boost dopamine instead of BCAA’s? Tyrosine, as I understand it, is a precursor to dopamine, and I use it to help me focus at work. IF it does indeed increase dopamine, and IF these studies are correct in their hypothesis, tyrosine could be a great supplement the day of a meet.
I think we’ve all experienced being worn out at one time or another.
For awhile, I was so desperate to get my strength back to normal after a decline that I was maxing way too often and way too frequently. I couldn’t place why lifts that mathematically should’ve been easy were very difficult for me. After a good deload and a few extra days of rest, I was strong again.
I just completed a peaking cycle last night and through the 8 weeks, I deviated from the plan… a lot. On days where I was supposed to stop at a triple, I decided to go for a “light single.” Each session felt fine, but last night, the weight I should’ve been able to hit no problem… and with progress through the cycle being good and steady… I wasn’t able to pull it off the floor. As in, I didn’t budge it at all, even though I tore forty pounds less than that weight moments earlier. I think I could still hit it my goals come meet time, but the deload is absolutely crucial for it.
Whether it’s a physiological effect on the nervous system… whatever you call it, we do fatigue.
Things that can be argued against CNS burnout:
No solid research and substrate depletion can account for most chronic fatigue related symptoms.
Things that make CNS burnout seem like a real thing:
How in the fuck is the OmegaWave as accurate as it is and why the fuck do I feel awesome after an ice bath + a good nights sleep.
Personally, I think the neuro/muscular systems aren’t two seperate things. If the CNS is burnt out, that means something has been depleted somewhere. What are we talking about here? Acetacholine at the synaptic cleft? Sodium/Potassium? Something has gone dry somewhere. I am not smart enough to figure out where or what it is. I do know that when my hands are involved in a ton of work in the weightroom, I am wrecked for at least a week. I also know that if I deadlift heavy closer than a month out from a meet, I have a shitty meet. So, there is definitely something more than just substrate depletion going on.
Kinda rambling here. I don’t really have an opinion on this. Either way, CNS burnout or naught, I think the only time anything is a problem is when someone who is too undertrained for a given physical task does more work than they are capable of handling.
Well look at that. The fellow in the second link to “Athletic Performance Revolution” is a pretty good friend of mine.
Thanks for the link. I’m looking forward to carrying on the conversation with him and Beefcakemdphd, IRL.
Good thread. Between this and “does maxing make you stronger”, its feeling a little intellectual in here.
[quote]animus wrote:
Whether it’s a physiological effect on the nervous system… whatever you call it, we do fatigue.[/quote]
But aren’t fatigue and burn out 2 different things? I’ve seen people fatigued achieve PR’s and days when people feel good, still not get the weight they thought they could.
I would assume a one rep true max requires your nervous system to hit on all cylinders at the perfect time, requiring all the receptors for nerve actions to be fully primed and ready.
[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:
Personally, I think the neuro/muscular systems aren’t two seperate things. If the CNS is burnt out, that means something has been depleted somewhere. What are we talking about here? Acetacholine at the synaptic cleft? Sodium/Potassium? Something has gone dry somewhere. I am not smart enough to figure out where or what it is. I do know that when my hands are involved in a ton of work in the weightroom, I am wrecked for at least a week. I also know that if I deadlift heavy closer than a month out from a meet, I have a shitty meet. So, there is definitely something more than just substrate depletion going on.[/quote]
This. Until I can see some pretty clearly drawn-out physiological explanation for exactly WHAT “CNS burnout” is, I will continue to believe it is complete broscience. The only place I ever see it thrown around is the internet, in regards to weight training.
The fact is there is a limit to work capacity. If you want to call it CNS burnout or not is a purely a matter of semantics. Bottom line: A point of diminishing returns is reached after a certain amount of work is done given a certain span of time.
If you say there is no such thing as overtraining, that you will always adjust and adapt, then let me ask you this. Why not squat 500 sets of your 1 rep max everyday. Just lift 8 times a day. There is clearly a limit to where recovery is needed both for short term and long term progression. That is an obvious fact accepted by any knowledgeable coach regardless of sport when setting the year’s practices.
The question isnt does overtraining exist, but rather where is the line drawn. How far can adaptability be pushed, and how far should it be pushed. To that, I dont think anyone really knows for fact, and I dont know if there will ever be a standard for everyone. Too many factors determine recovery that are not just determined by your 1 rep maxes.
Thanks Tim for posting these articles. BTW, I think I met you at the 1999 USAPL Collegiate Nats in Indiana, or was it the 1998 one in Killeen?
The 1st article does bring up some interesting points. However, it would appear that all of the studies mentioned pertained to fatigue during a bout of exercise. Not so much as fatigue, then rest, and ability to repeat an intense performance. So I am not sure if we can necessarily apply the mentioned studies. Also, the exercise studied would be consistent with endurance training, not high intensity 1 RM lifting; I do not believe that the study can be applied in this capacity.
Beefcake MD-PhD
There is no such thing as cns burnout with weight training. It’s a bro-science term and sound-bite theory thrown around by internet writers trying to get people to read their articles.
[quote]Caltene wrote:
There is no such thing as cns burnout with weight training. It’s a bro-science term and sound-bite theory thrown around by internet writers trying to get people to read their articles. [/quote]
Thank God you posted again. My pants were starting to dry.
Combatting cns and/or adrenal fatigue would start with the diet, one would think. Limiting (or maybe even preferably eliminating) caffeine, eating a diet high in antioxidants, magnesium, vit D3, calcium and glutathione, eliminating gluten and other inflammatories, taking your fish oil and drinking tons of water would probably allow your cns to function more optimally and keep “burnout” at bay. This is obviously in conjunction with an otherwise traditional bodybuilding diet.
[quote]beefcakemdphd wrote:
Thanks Tim for posting these articles. BTW, I think I met you at the 1999 USAPL Collegiate Nats in Indiana, or was it the 1998 one in Killeen?
The 1st article does bring up some interesting points. However, it would appear that all of the studies mentioned pertained to fatigue during a bout of exercise. Not so much as fatigue, then rest, and ability to repeat an intense performance. So I am not sure if we can necessarily apply the mentioned studies. Also, the exercise studied would be consistent with endurance training, not high intensity 1 RM lifting; I do not believe that the study can be applied in this capacity.
Beefcake MD-PhD
[/quote]
You have a good memory, I was at both of those meets actually. I hope your training has been going well since then.
In regards to the topic, I am happy to go over it in more depth if you wish. From my vantage point I am completely convinced that CNS fatigue occurs and I would need to see very significant evidence directly contrary to that to be moved to another position. Essentially what I am saying is I don’t feel the need to prove that it does indeed exist but I think the question should rather be “can you prove that it doesn’t?” as I see the burden of proof on those with the opposing viewpoint.
[quote]Tim Henriques wrote:
You have a good memory, I was at both of those meets actually. I hope your training has been going well since then.
In regards to the topic, I am happy to go over it in more depth if you wish. From my vantage point I am completely convinced that CNS fatigue occurs and I would need to see very significant evidence directly contrary to that to be moved to another position. Essentially what I am saying is I don’t feel the need to prove that it does indeed exist but I think the question should rather be “can you prove that it doesn’t?” as I see the burden of proof on those with the opposing viewpoint. [/quote]
Maybe it’s best to consider this a “scientific theory.” A theory is the current-best explanation for an observed, repeatable phenomenon, validated by repetitive research, which has not yet been invalidated by research supporting a contradicting hypothesis (which would then itself become a theory). [i.e. the theory of gravity explains the observation of objects in orbit; there is no proof for the current theory of gravity – special relativity – but no proof against it… prior to special relativity, Newtownian physics was the conventional model and accepted theory for the observation which was then invalidated by special relativity being validated through repeated studies… theory of evolution follows the same suit, explains an observable phenomenon of species changing over time, etc. etc]
The onus is always on the hypothesis to invalidate the current theory by some repeatable measure.
Can someone first give a definition of what a ‘CNS burn-out’ exactly is, or is supposed to be? I think most ppl just use it as a fancy term for ‘muscle fatigue’.
When you use your eyes very intense, it’s not your optical nerve that get’s fatigues - it’s the muscles around your retina/eyeball.
Nerves can’t get fatigues, it’s just physicly not possible.