T Nation

Clomid vs Novladex

Pardon my lack of knowledge, but some one explain this to me.

Novla = Estrogen blocker, does this by occupying the receptor sites and excess estrogen cant bind.

Clomid = Blocks estrogen, but not as effectively as Novla BUT works on the HTPA by inhibiting negative feedback causing LH to rise and kick starts your “boys” into working again.

I don’t understand why people use Novla as PCT when it is a Anti-E. Isn’t the goal of PCT to get back your natural production?

In a nutshell I don’t get why people are using Novla for PCT.
This stems from an argument with doctor friend of mine who says that Novla is stupid for PCT.

Nolva and clomid are very similar in action, but “. But most importantly, Nolvadex has a direct influence on bringing back natural testosterone, where as clomid may actually have a slight negative influence. The reason being that Tamoxifen (as in Nolvadex) seems to increase the responsiveness of LH (luteinizing hormone) to GnRH (gonadtropin releasing hormone), whereas clomid seems to decrease the responsiveness a bit(1).”

(1) Vermeulen A., Comhaire F., Hormonal effects of an anti-estrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men, Fertil. Ster. 29 (1978) 320-27

www.bodybuilding.com/fun/catnolv.htm

Sorry I’m not really explaining, but this stuff speaks for itself :wink:

“Since most anabolic/androgenic steroids will suppress endogenous testosterone production, Nolvadex can help restore a balance in hormone levels. Nolvadex should be preferred over Clomid for this purpose in fact, as side by side it is clearly the stronger agent. It has also been shown to increase LH responsiveness to Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone after time, while Clomid slightly lowers this sensitivity as the drug is used for several weeks.”

www.steroidology.com/steroid-articles/steroid.info/25/Nolvadex®_(tamoxifen_citrate).html

Anybody disagree with the info there? It seems to mesh with what my understanding has been. Hope this helps Cron.

How does Novla increase LH when it is a Anti-E?

Clomid does this by working on the HTPA via inhibiting negative feedback. Don’t clearly understand the mechanism of how it does this.

I’ve heard, for some people, it’s a case of not liking the side-effects associated with Clomid - I think some people get quite emotional on it.

On the other hand, nothing wrong with using both at least at the start of PCT (from my understanding).

As you take steroids your body his an increased amount of testosterone. Your body reacts to this by increasing estrogen levels. Nolvadex blocks the higher E levels you have after your test drops from the cycle. It gives your body time to get working again properly on its own. Nolva stimulates natural production of test.

Right?

[quote]SPQA wrote:
As you take steroids your body his an increased amount of testosterone. Your body reacts to this by increasing estrogen levels. Nolvadex blocks the higher E levels you have after your test drops from the cycle.

It gives your body time to get working again properly on its own. Nolva stimulates natural production of test.

Right?

[/quote]

How does it do this, when Novla just blocks E?

just as your body raises E levels when you’re on AAS. There is a natural equilibrium it will try to maintain. By blocking the higher levels of E, it gives your body time to start producing it’s own Test again.

[quote]SPQA wrote:
As you take steroids your body his an increased amount of testosterone. Your body reacts to this by increasing estrogen levels. Nolvadex blocks the higher E levels you have after your test drops from the cycle. It gives your body time to get working again properly on its own. Nolva stimulates natural production of test.

Right?

[/quote]

No.

If you take a steroid that aromatizes, your estrogen levels will rise.

That is not how Nolvadex works as PCT. Nolvadex helps restore HPTA function. It does not merely prevent gyno while your body begins to produce more testosterone.

It is possible for your HPTA to recover without the use of a SERM, but the process takes longer. The longer it takes for normal HPTA function to be restored the more gains the user will lose, usually.

The term “anti-e” isn’t particularly accurate either. (I know you didn’t initially use it). Nolvadex is a SERM. It does other things than just prevent estrogen from binding in breast tissue. In other places it will act as estrogen does, to what extent and in what places, I don’t know for sure.

As far as I am concerned “anti-e” is an oversimplified term used by some people who want to uncomplicate things.

EDIT
After re-reading my post I’ll say this. The term “Anti-e” may be an oversimplification of what a SERM actually does but I don’t mean to imply that my explanation is not simplified to a degree.

[quote]Cron391 wrote:
SPQA wrote:
As you take steroids your body his an increased amount of testosterone. Your body reacts to this by increasing estrogen levels. Nolvadex blocks the higher E levels you have after your test drops from the cycle.

It gives your body time to get working again properly on its own. Nolva stimulates natural production of test.

Right?

How does it do this, when Novla just blocks E?[/quote]

Nolvadex doesn’t “just block E”. It binds to the estrogen receptors in breast tissue with stronger affinity than estrogen.

The estrogen that is produced via aromatization is still present in the body, it just doesn’t have the chance to bind to the breast tissue. This is why nolva can be used to prevent gyno from occuring.

For the guys here that are smarter than me please correct me if anything is inaccurate.

  1. The idea that Clomid and Nolvadex are pharmacologically different in their mechanism of action is wrong.

  2. The claim that Clomid has the claimed “slight negative influence” is wrong, and derived from a study using THREE TIMES THE DOSE OF CLOMID THAT IS PROPER versus a correct dose of tamoxifen.

Both work equally or certainly comparably well for PCT. It is a question of personal preference and availability.

I still dont understand how, Novla helps restore HPTA and LH levels? Ya it binds to estrogen receptors, but how does this return your own natural test?

So after a cycle androgen levels drop, so your body pumps extra E to compensate for the lack of Test? How does blocking this extra E result in your own Test coming back to normal?

Regulation of LH production (or actually both of LHRH – LH releasing hormone – and the pituitary’s responsiveness to LHRH) is a function not only of androgen levels, but also estrogenic activity in those organs, as well as a number of other factors.

Unfortunately it turns out that while I recycled (in much expanded form) most of the articles I’d written for Dan Duchaine’s newsletter when working for him, I forgot to ever recycle the one on LH regulation.

Unfortunate, because I researched that one a lot, it is quite complicated, and frankly I forget most of the details. And the old newsletters aren’t available online unless one pays for them, which I’m not going to do, and I’m far too disorganized to still have a copy.

So rather than give a full explanation, which I know from experience would take a long time to get the details right, briefly these SERMs reduce the degree of partial estrogenic inhibition that is normally present even with fairly low estrogen, and even more interestingly as they have mixed activity there is a respect in which estrogen increases LH production in which they conveniently act like estrogen, instead of blocking estrogenic effect.

So you get the positives of estrogen with regard to LH production but not the degree of partial inhibition that is normally always present. Or at least, that is greatly reduced.

Fair enough Bill as always your input is much appreciated.

So if it were you which would you use for a SERM PCT? Noval or Clomid?

Clomid but I have no mood or vision problems with it. If a person does, then Nolvadex.

It’s clear that both work so I don’t make a point of pushing one or the other. I used to think Clomid worked a little better from a limited number of cases and also with a journal article finding that, but as time has gone on I now think the difference in efficacy, if any, is unclear.

As an unproven feeling I pick Clomid as better in that it seems to do better for ejaculatory volume and I can’t imagine that that is unrelated to its effects in improving LH/FSH.

I can’t really prove either that it is better in that regard though or that that is evidence of anything more than the thing itself. But still, Clomid is my first choice.