T Nation

Clomid PCT Fans

Holy Shit, I think I am PMS?ing. I am highly irritable, argumentative and ready to whip some body?s ass, more aggressive than when I was doing 400 MGS of Prop and 300 MGS of Tren A a week. If these are the sides for Clomid I am switching back to Nolva for PCT. I am just glad I didn?t take 300 MG?s of this shit.

I am using it for the first 15 days and switching to Nolva for the rest of the PCT. To make matters worse I added some Alpha Male and man I was almost ready to chew glass.

Is this normal for Clomid? I decided to use the Clomid because from what I read and researched it is better suited to regenerate the whole HPTA than Nolva. ANy input from you clomid fans? Thanks,

You nailed it on the button. You get PMS symptoms. Some turn into highly emotional wrecks, while others turn into argumentative assholes. I do both. My girl notices a big change in me when I’m in PCT with Clomid. It is better for your recovery than Nolva though… so I just grin and bear it.

Thanks, this is my 1st time using it. I hope it’s worth it. I know next time my wife has her PMS I will tread even lighter if it’s anything like this!

LOL! Yeah, that’s Clomid. I get much more emotional than is usual for me, a little “blue” I guess. I don’t really experience any irratibility. Anyway, it’s completely tolerable for me (it helps that I live alone), as Clomid is better, in my opinion, for PCT than Nolva.

Crowbar

You guys are scaring the shit out of me. I don’t want to be a sniveling little girl, or even worse - an even bigger asshole than I already am.

And I start my PCT in about 3 weeks. Any hints/tricks to help alleviate the PMS-like symptoms?

[quote]rainjack wrote:
You guys are scaring the shit out of me. I don’t want to be a sniveling little girl, or even worse - an even bigger asshole than I already am.

And I start my PCT in about 3 weeks. Any hints/tricks to help alleviate the PMS-like symptoms?[/quote]

Actually, nolvadex is better than clomid. Type nolvadex+clomid+bodybuilding into google.

Not everybody gets this from clomid. I get nothing other than very emotional dreams from clomid.

I agree about Nolva being better than Clomid for PCT.

Clomid is superior when it comes to regenerating the hpta, and nolvadex is better suited as an estrogen antagonist.
This is evidenced by the strong affinity that nolvadex has on estrogen receptors in breast tissues, wheras clomid has a greater affinity for the hypothalamus.

From personal experience, clomid definitely gets things going much quicker, but d/t the side effects I limit it’s use to 2-3 weeks and then switch to nolvadex if I still need to “recover.”

MK

Clomid stimulates the release of more gonadtrophin from the pituatory gland and nolva blocks estrogen receptors, so how can nolva be better for PCT??

Asking for advice.

Also, has anyone ever used cyclofenil?

Any input?

[quote]mikekatz wrote:
Clomid is superior when it comes to regenerating the hpta, and nolvadex is better suited as an estrogen antagonist.
This is evidenced by the strong affinity that nolvadex has on estrogen receptors in breast tissues, wheras clomid has a greater affinity for the hypothalamus.

From personal experience, clomid definitely gets things going much quicker, but d/t the side effects I limit it’s use to 2-3 weeks and then switch to nolvadex if I still need to “recover.”

MK
[/quote]

yeah, everything mentioned here is spot on.

stick with clomid. the only time i experienced any sides was when i ran the 300/100/50 protocol…i think the 300mg frontload of clomid is just too much. 100mg ED works just fine and i experience less annoying side effects.

I completely agree with the 300mg dose being too much. Though I have ran only one cycle (test enan) I used clomid+nolvadex for PCT, and immediately following the 300mg frontload of clomid I felt like killing people and headbutting old ladies crossing the sidewalk. Clomid fucked with me mentally more than anything I’ve ever had in my system. I will never use it again.

I still think Nolva is a better choice for PCT then Clomid. It’s ture that in the medical community Nolva has been used more as an anti-e but that doesn’t mean that is all it’s good for. You can take less amounts of Nolva to get the same results from Clomid and they both do basically the same thing. Here is a good read on which one to use:

While practically similar compounds in structure, few people ever really consider Clomid and nolva to be similar. Its not just a common myth in steroid circles, but even in the medical community. This misconception originates from their completely different uses. Nolvadex is most commonly used for the treatment of breast cancer in women, while Clomid is generally considered a fertility aid. In bodybuilding circles, from day one, Clomid has generally been used as post-cycle therapy and Nolvadex as an anti-estrogen.

But as I intend to demonstrate this is in essence the same. I believe the myth to have originated because nolva is clearly a more powerful anti-estrogen, and the people selling Clomid needed another angle to sell the stuff, so it was mostly used as a post-cycle aid. But few users really understand how Clomid (and also Nolvadex, logically) works to bring back natural testosterone in the body after the conclusion of a cycle of androgenic anabolic steroids. After a cycle is over, the level of androgens in the body drop drastically. The body compensates with an overproduction of estrogen to keep steroid levels up. Estrogen as well inhibits the production of natural testosterone, and in the period between the return of natural testosterone and the end of a cycle, a lot of mass is lost. So its in everybody’s best interest to bring back natural test as soon as humanly possible. Clomid and Nolvadex will reduce the post-cycle estrogen, so that a steroid deficiency is constated and the hypothalamus is stimulated to regenerate natural testosterone production in the body. That’s basically how the mechanism works, nothing more, nothing less.

Both compounds are structurally alike, classified as triphenylethylenes. Nolvadex is clearly the stronger component of the two as it can achieve better results in decreasing overall estrogen with 20-40 mg a day, than Clomid can in doses of 100-150 mg a day. A noteworthy difference. Triphenylethylenes are very mild estrogens that do not exert a lot, if any activity at the estrogen receptor, but are still highly attracted to it. As such they will occupy the receptor and keep it from binding estrogens. This means they do not actively work to reduce estrogen in the body like Proviron, Viratase or arimidex would (by competing for the aromatase enzyme), but that it blocks the receptor so that any estrogen in the body is basically inert, because it has no receptor to bind to.

This has advantages and disadvantages. The disadvantage is that when use is discontinued, the estrogen level is still the same and new problems will develop much sooner. The advantage is that it works much faster and has results sooner than with an aromatase blocker like Proviron or arimidex. Therefor, when problems such as gynocomastia occur during a cycle of steroids one will usually start 20 mg/day of nolva or 100 mg/day of Clomid straight away, in conjunction with some Proviron or arimidex. The proviron or arimidex will actively reduce estrogen while the Clomid or Nolvadex will solve your ongoing problem straight away. This way, when use is discontinued there is no immediate rebound.

So which one should you use? Well personally, I’d have to say Nolvadex. Both as an on-cycle anti-estrogen and a post-cycle therapy. As an anti-estrogen its simply much stronger, demonstrated by the fact that better results are obtained with 20-40 mg than with 100-150 mg of Clomid. For post-cycle, this plays a key role as well. It deactivates rebound estrogen much faster and more effective. But most importantly, Nolvadex has a direct influence on bringing back natural testosterone, where as Clomid may actually have a slight negative influence. The reason being that tamoxifen (as in Nolvadex) seems to increase the responsiveness of LH (luteinizing hormone) to GnRH (gonadtropin releasing hormone), whereas Clomid seems to decrease the responsiveness a bit1.

Another noteworthy fact about Nolvadex is that it acts more potently as an estrogen in the liver. As you remember, I mentioned that clomiphene and tamoxifen are basically weak estrogens. Well, tamoxifen is apparently still quite potent in the liver. This offers us the positive benefits of this hormone in the liver, while avoiding its negative effects elsewhere in the body. As such Nolvadex can have a very positive impact on negative cholesterol levels2 in the body, and therefore too should be considered a better choice than Clomid. It will not solve the problem of bad cholesterol levels during Steroid use, but will help to contain the problem to a larger degree.

Another reason why I promote the use of Nolvadex over Clomid post-cycle (as if being 3-4 times stronger and having more of a direct effect on restoring natural test wasn’t enough) is because it’s a lot safer. Not just because it improves lipid profiles, but also because it simply doesn’t have the intrinsic side-effects that Clomid has. Clomid causes more acne for sure, but that’s mainly because you need to use a 3-4 times higher dose. But Clomid seems to also affect the eyesight. Long-term Clomid therapy causes irreversible changes in eyesight3 in users. Irreversible. For me that alone is reason enough to prefer Nolvadex.

Lastly, one should be aware that use of these compounds can reduce the gains made on steroids. Nolvadex more so than Clomid, simply because it is stronger. Estrogen is responsible for a number of anabolic factors such as increasing growth hormone output, upgrading the androgen receptor and improving glucose utilization. This is why aromatizing steroids like testosterone are still best suited for maximum muscle gain. When reducing the estrogen levels, we therefore reduce the potential gains being made. For this reason one may opt to try Clomid during a cycle instead of Nolvadex. Although I would imagine that the problem that needed solved would be of more concern, in which case nolva remains the weapon of choice. It’s a plain fact that there is a high correlation between gains and side-effects. Either you go for maximum gains and tolerate the side-effects, or you reduce the side-effects, and with it the gains. That’s life, nothing is free.

Stacking and Use:

If problems of Gynocomastia or other estrogen related symptoms tend to pop up during a cycle the use of 20-30 mg of Nolvadex or 100 mg of Clomid daily should easily contain the problem, and be used until a few days after the problem subsides. For best results and the least amount of problems upon cessation it is best stacked with Proviron (50 mg) or arimidex (0.5 mg) for this duration as well. Its not advised that these products be ran concomitantly with the steroid for the entire duration of the stack, as this will reduce your gains. Instead cease the usage of anti-estrogens once the problem is contained, and should the problem resurface, simply recommence the use of the products in the same manner as described above.

Once a cycle of steroids is concluded one should always initiate a post-cycle therapy to help bring back natural testosterone as soon as possible. This will help you to retain the mass you gained. How this is done depends highly on the type of steroid used. If only orals were used, therapy should start immediately, even the last day of the stack. If short-acting esters or water-based injectables were used, therapy should commence within 4-7 days after last injection, and if long-acting esters were used then it should commence 1.5 to 2 weeks after the last injection was given. The length of the therapy will vary as well, from 3-5 weeks. The longer acting the product was, the longer therapy should be continued to make sure all suppressive factors are cleared before use of Clomid/Nolvadex is discontinued.

For best results, it is best stacked with HCG (Human Chorionic gonadotrophin), which functions as an LH analog and can help bring testicle size back up. HCG use starts the last week of a cycle, and on from there every 5-6 days (usually 1500-3000 IU) and discontinued 1.5 to weeks prior to the cessation of Nolvadex/clomid. The reason being that HCG itself is also suppressive of natural testosterone and should be out of the body before therapy is over, or it will inhibit natural testicle function. But I can not stress enough that HCG possibly plays a more important role in post-cycle therapy than clomid/Nolvadex. For Clomid and Nolvadex, doses are usually tapered down. Its best to start with 40-50 mg of Nolvadex or 150 mg of Clomid for the first week or the first two weeks, and then finish the program with 20-25 mg of Nolvadex or 100 mg of Clomid for an additional two weeks

And a study showing that 20mg of Nolva is equal to 150mg of Clomid.

Fertil Steril. 1978 Mar;29(3):320-7.

Hormonal effects of an antiestrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men.

Vermeulen A, Comhaire F.

The administration of tamoxifen, 20 mg/day for 10 days, to normal males produced a moderate increase in luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), testosterone, and estradiol levels, comparable to the effect of 150 mg of clomiphene citrate (Clomid). However, whereas Clomid produced a decrease in the LH response to LH-releasing hormone (LHRH), no such effect was seen after the administration of tamoxifen. In fact, prolonged treatment (6 weeks) with tamoxifen significantly increased the LH response to LHRL. Treatment of patients with “idiopathic” oligospermia for 6 to 9 months resulted in a significant increase in gonadotropin, testosterone, and estradiol levels. A significant increase in sperm density was observed only in subjects with oligospermia below 20 X 10(6)/ml and normal basal FSH levels. When basal FSH levels were increased or oligospermia was moderate (greater than 20 X 10(6)/ml); no effect on sperm density was seen. As sperm density increased, FSH levels decreased, suggesting an inhibin effect. Sperm motility was not improved by tamoxifen treatment. In five boys with delayed puberty, tamoxifen treatment appeared to activate the pituitary-gonadal axis and pubertal development.

Man I read this and about fell out of my chair laughing. I used a 100 MGS ED for the 1st 5 and am switching to 50 MGS ED taken at night. I am adding 40 MG of Nolva as well. I have not felt depressed or blue just hyper agressive. Thanks to all who replied to this thread.

[quote]SiCLoGiC wrote:
I completely agree with the 300mg dose being too much. Though I have ran only one cycle (test enan) I used clomid+nolvadex for PCT, and immediately following the 300mg frontload of clomid I felt like killing people and headbutting old ladies crossing the sidewalk. Clomid fucked with me mentally more than anything I’ve ever had in my system. I will never use it again.[/quote]

Very informative thread. Is there any benefit to combining Clomid and Nolva post cycle? I had never used nolva before, strictly clomid, but after the last 10 week AAS cycle I just did I loaded up with my usual 300mg clomid day 1 and then to 100mg thereafter. I have the nolva as well and have been taking 40mg/day. By combining these two am I doing any harm to my recovery? Should I save the nolva for later or vice/versa?

Dude, didn’t you already post this?

Yeah man, sorry. Just figured I would start a new thread.

clomid made me treat people like an asshole. i kinda liked it though. i’m a fuckball though. and i was dosing a lot of caffeine at times.

Alright this is mainly directed at sprinter one but anyone else is welcome to comment.

You described Nolva as the superior to clomid.

Would you suggest nolva as PCT in a non-aromatizing cycle over Clomid?

Do you still have significant gains on PCT? AKA should I keep my calories up, or can I move onto my cutting phase during my PCT?