T Nation

Clomid Only Cycle? Other Questions


#1

I'm late 40s. Had testosterone tested many years ago. I was low, not off the charts low but probably sub 300 and that was 10 years ago. The doctor told me he could put me on test injections but then I couldn't have kids. I know now that clomid/hcg would help with that. He may have been ignorant, not sure. One thing he told me upon seeing me (I'm relatively muscular, have a full beard, body hair) is that "testosterone is funny...you don't look like you're low, maybe you just don't need as much". No idea if this was just him covering up his lack of knowledge or whether that's real. I definitely have some signs now though, lack of libido, poor recovery from workouts.

Anyway, I've read various things on a "clomid only cycle". Some papers said this could be a new "protocol", as it stimulates the H/P of the HPTA to secrete LH and FSH. On bodybuilding sites the reaction was pretty negative, with people thinking it was stupid, ridiculous, would lead to bad sides (moodiness/depression), etc, wouldn't work. However they may have been talking about in comparison to an AAS cycle and not TRT. Some on those sites said that they did try it and their test did go up. I realize you have to have secondary hypogonadism, not primary. I was tested years ago and I have secondary, my testes work fine, for some reason the thermostat is turned down low.

Anyway, so question #1 is, "has anyone ever tried a clomid only cycle and been happy with it?" Some say it raised their test, did it seem to work in the gym as well? Higher test levels won't mean much on paper unless they're reflected in better workouts, etc.

Another aspect is that yes, some say it raised their test, but it will also raise estrogen, not sure if that means it will negate gains in the gym or whether that it just messes with their libido so much it makes it unpleasant.

And others say clomid only will raise SHBG which will bind test. It's as though your body is saying "we don't want all that test, so we're just going to bind some of it up, so you can't use it". That seems strange, why wouldn't test injections do the same thing? Maybe the higher LH and FSH from clomid stimulate SHBG?

One guy I know is on injectables and HCG. He only gets a shot once every 2 -3 weeks. I asked him and he said they would let him inject at home, he just doens't. I thought HCG had to be injected at low levels every couple of days, I was surprised at them injecting hcg only once every 3 weeks. So I would be somewhat psyched if I could inject enough to put me mid range (say 550-600) or so, and do it every week to keep it level. Not sure about hcg or whether clomid at the same time would work as well as HCG (just in a different way, ie stimulate FSH and LH instead of the testes directly).

So that's a side question: Does clomid during trt make sense to keep testes going? Or is it hcg only?

Also I've heard, mostly on here, about sub-Q injections. Is that still a protocol? Do you inject in the muscle or just in fat at the waist or somewhere else?

Thanks for any replies.


#2

Clomid plus arimidex has worked great for me. Some people don't react well to clomid and if you don't control E2 during whatever TRT protocol you run, you aren't going to have a good time. Nolva is also an option.

On the bodybuilding boards, it's run at least 500mg T per week, or GTFO.

Clomid isn't going to make you a muscle beast, but it can restore you to natural levels. That's why it has a bad rep on those boards.

If you want a real-world detailed log of clomid, check my thread.

Before you start any protocol you should get the usual KSman list of tests done. This will check for pituitary tumors, hypothroidism, and determine if you are primary or secondary hypogonadism.


#3

thank you very much for your replies. I wonder how much hcg is from a doctor if self injecting. Are you allowed to say where you can get it online?


#4

Clomid will not work people with testicular dysfuction, i.e, when LH/FSH are already high or normal. When LH/FSH are low, the problem is with the pituitary gland. When the testes are unable to crank enough T with normal LH without any clomid, it won't with elevated LH with clomid. The overstimulation of LH creates E in the testes which can be more problematic than no treatment. You need to determine if you're secondary or primary. If secondary, Clomid/Nolvadex can be used to raise T.

SHBG does not bind T per say, it is more of measurement to see how much T is available for the body to use. Clomid is half estrogen, when there is not enough T in the system and we intake pure estrogen in the body alongside overstimulating T-->E in the testes, SHBG can rise, this can inflate total testosterone measurement while not changing the actual T which is bioavailable. T reduces SHBG and E increases it.

In sum, determine the cause of your low T and then act. If testes are not functioning optimally, Clomid or hCG is not going to lead to optimal T levels. When LH/FSH are low and that's causing low T, they can be used to trick the brain make more LH/FSH and hence more T.


#5

T does bind to SHBG! Note that bio-available T is [FT + albumin+T]. It does not include SHBG+T
Not sure what you meant to say.

There are references to SHBG transporting T, and that is incorrect. Estrogens can be transported by SHBG and that leads to mis-statements about SHBG+T. The only transport for SHBG+T is to the liver for metabolic destruction.


#6

What I meant to say was that how SHBG is thought of some evil protein binding all the testosterone we have, rather as we discussed earlier, it inflates TT more than what would be expected with a given FT. Having a TT of 700 does not mean that we are producing 700 ng/Dl of T which is all eaten by SHBG. It's more like the greater SHBG one has, the greater TT would one have for a ft value. This has happened to a lot of people with clomid, where ft remains unchanged but SHBG and with it TT goes up. I typed it wrong.


#7

I think the Clomid only cycle is not a good idea.

I'm going in for a consult in two weeks, I'll let you know how it goes.

One guy has them injecting test cyp and hcg. Problem is they do it every 2-3 weeks, and I think they use 200 mg test cyp.

That's not much. He did say he's pretty sure they would let him inject at home.

I want 150mg test cyp/week and 250iu hcg 2 to 3 times per week.

I was thinking about ordering some masteron (100 mg /week) as an add on or maybe even a small amount of deca (50mg / week). I read something about how it would tie up the 5-ar receptors and block some of the test -> DHT conversion. But maybe that's nonsense.

Don't know where to order it though. I've seen sites online, but not sure if they're legit. Very frustrating.


#8

"godadthebarbarian", so what happened with your clomid only cycle? Are you still on it? Satisfied?

It sounded promising, just not sure if it's really viable long term. Plus estrogenic sides sounds depressing.


#9

I'm on clomid + arimidex and I love it.

Is it viable long term? No clue, I'm just going to ride this until I can't anymore. Worst case scenario I have to get over my reluctance to pin. Having better T also helps not worry about unknowns.

I have a detailed blow by blow (just updated today) in my thread, linked above.


#10

Well, went to the doc today. He has a whole franchise so I didn't speak to him, just a PA or something. Seemed very open to injecting at home and also test + HCG, said he'd work with getting a compounding pharmacy, etc.

So that's good.

I didn't mention clomid only. Not sure if he'd do that now or not. Maybe it's not generally accepted.

So now I await blood tests. 2 weeks I get them back.


#11

Didn't know where to ask this so I'll just put this on my thread here.

Anyway, suppose I want sub Q. He said that the oil is so thick he uses 22 guage. Doing it myself I could see 25 or so. But sub Q, aren't the needles 29? How do you get the oil out of the needle? Is it difficult?

And when you inject it, you just put it 1/2 inch in or so? Or is that too far? I think I am fat enough so that I could put it in a "spare tire"...but I suppose there's a danger that it could go into a vein or something if you did it in your abdomen...any advice on this?

Also I think you can only inject 1/2 cc at a time. Which may work I guess. But it limits you to injecting only about 100mg of test at a time.