T Nation

Clomid Dosing: Effectiveness of Amounts


#1

I’ve got a personal thread here, but I’m interested in getting everyone’s thoughts on a broader topic that concerns all of us on SERMS.

Many guys report more subjective success on lower Clomid dosage regimes. I see some guys all the way down to 12.5mg E3D. The theory proposed is that the better feelings are not the result of more testosterone than they see at higher dosages, just that the T-levels are close enough AND they’re avoiding the estrogenic effects of too much zuclomiphene.

There’s a second theory that too much Clomid might actually be less effective at inducing testosterone production than medium or low dosages; perhaps there’s a bell curve type effect, where the body scales back after a certain amount of the enclomiphene.

Despite these theories, I don’t see a lot of guys showing bloodwork at various levels. Here’s what I’ve got:

Pre-Clomid:
360 Total T (Reference range: 250-1100)
79 Free T (35-155)
14 E2 (>/= 29)
FSH: 1.9 (1.6-8.0)

1 Month of Clomid 50mg/day
520 Total T
170 Free T

4 months of Clomid 50mg/day
520 Total T
170 Free T (again)
3.5: LH
4.0 FSH

1 month of Clomid 25mg/day
420 Total T
105 Free T
4.7 LH

The important caveat about the 25mg/day is that I had been dieting at -500 kcal/day for about 4 months at that point and was down to roughly 8% bodyfat. That probably wreaked havoc on my hormone levels.

What interests me is that I had lower T and Free T levels at the lower dosage, but with a higher LH value. I wonder if that means that the lower dosage WOULD provide a larger T bump had I not been dieting.

That gets around to this question then: is the typical drop in testosterone from a caloric deficit caused more by:

  1. Reduced activity at the pituitary - usually less LH being produced, as the body makes some budget cuts to compensate for the energy deficit.
  2. Reduced synthesization of testosterone in the testes

My experience militates towards the latter, which would mean I should continue the lower dosage when I’m out of the caloric deficit. But one guy’s results don’t mean much so I’d like to know if anyone else has any theories or experience about this topic.

Subjectively, I felt the normal Clomid high two weeks after first beginning, and then settled back into a better-than-pre-Clomid groove. When I dropped the dosage, I didn’t feel great, but I think that may be related to the dieting.

Perhaps the next experiment is trying an even higher dosage than 50mg/day and seeing what happens.


#2

I would really caution against going higher than 50mg/day. People do get side effects from clomid and the more you take, the more you risk them.

It’s really unfortunate that 50mg/day only puts you at 520 T. I got to that level from 12.5mg/day. I’d encourage you to look into injecting T+HCG as you are getting marginal results from a large clomid dose.

I also don’t see any E2 results from when you are on clomid. That is useful information if you have it.


#3

Yeah, I need to get my E2 numbers but I’m perpetually broke so I usually just get the minimum.

I’m not concerned about the total T really, given my free t numbers.

But I’m trying not to make this another journal, just using my experiences as a jumping off point for more discussion


#4

LH is released in pulses and variations through the day are a very high noise signal. FSH is a better indicator because of its longer half-life and steadier levels. So you missed the boat.

High E2 induced by clomid can be a huge determinant in how you feel. But your LH/FSH levels were moderate and perhaps that was not happening.

Was this Rx clomid or underground.?Your lowish LH/FSH has me concerned about the drugs potency or your hypothalamus-pituitary function. In this case, I am wondering if hCG would be more effective for you. Your LH/FSH response seems poor.


#5

Prescription Clomid.
My doctor said the free t levels were great and wasn’t worried about the “okay” total T.

Is my line of questioning here totally academic?

I’d add this to my original list of questions, since you brought it up:

  • we talk a lot about guys being either primary or secondary (or more likely a little of both).

Primary: Testes problem - balls not producing testosterone when exposed to LH; evidenced by lack of response to elevated LH levels from Clomid stimulation

Secondary: pituitary problem - pituitary not producing sufficient LH; evidenced by response to elevated LH levels from Clomid stimulation.

But what about guys who simply don’t see much LH stimulation from Clomid? Barring the possibility of defective drugs or missed pulses, what mechanism could account for a weak LH response to a SERM?

(Fwiw, I probably have thyroid issues too, with a 4.7 TSH reading several months ago. I supplement with Iodoral now. Not sure what crossover there might be)


#6

Have you guys every heard of getting a damaged hpta from a high dose clomid at 100-200mg daily? I ready about the suppression of LH (I’m guessing similar to taking HCG) but not exactly destroying your HpTA. Did this for two cycles before being put into TRT and wondering if the cause of my unchanged test on clomid was from the high mount of estrogen in the testicles and suppression of LH.


#7

You did cycles of Clomid? How long were the cycles?


#8

Just a month of clomid it was for a restart not like a steroid cycle


#9

What did your bloodwork reveal after this high dosing?


#10

He only tested test first time around was 920 post treatment, second time around test dropped in the 300s


#11

I’m a little confused by your reply, can you clarify?

You were at 920 Total T after the super-duper dosing, and then 300…when?