T Nation

Clomid, Arimidex


#1

Hello…Briefly, had a medical issue with my testicle that caused Secondary Hypogonadism for years but recently had the testicle issue fixed. Had a Triporelan and HCG Challenge test done to confirm the issue was indeed fixed and my testicles performed almost textbook, e.g. 1,000 ng/dl. So primary hypogonadism no longer is an issue. However this caused secondary hypogonadism. Taking low dose Clomid (12.5 mg nightly) and works great however has typical side effects.

Question, can I take another SERM, e.g. Nolvadex, to avoid side effects, and if so can this be prescribed and what would be the equivalent dosage, e.g. if I take 12.5 mg Clomid what would be the equivalent Nolvadex dosage? Also I understand Cottioni (a natural refined red seaweed SERM) is as effective as Clomid but has little to no side effects. If I take Cottioni what is the equivalent dose to Clomid?


#2

The problem with studies like this is that people get misled.

The doses are insanely high and the intent of the study was not to demonstrate any clinical dose recommendations. If you weigh 70kg, the study is 700mg tamoxifen 7000mg cottioni. The intent was to demonstrate that there was or was not some effectiveness. That much cottionni might make you feel sick. less toxicity to organs than a very high dose of tamoxifen that would never be used.
You cannot compare dried product with extract and would need to access the original paper for methods to learn about the extract.

“”“
The fresh
seaweed was thoroughly washed with distilled water, and
their holdfasts and epiphytes were removed. The cleaned
seaweed was then dried at 40∘C in dark room for 3 days and
grounded into fine powder using a miller. The powder was
stored at −20∘C in airtight containers wrapped by aluminum
foil.Then, the powder (200 g) was mechanically stirred with
1000mL of 80% (v/v) ethanol at room temperature (RT) for
24 h and filtered. The residue was then dissolved in 3000mL
of distilled water and stirred at RT for 8 h. Subsequently, the
extract was then filtered and concentrated under negative
pressure at 40 and 70∘C for 1 h, respectively. The extract
was oven dried at 40∘C overnight to produce powdered
extracts and then stored at −20∘C in airtight containers until
application.
”""

Yields are not discussed.


#3

Would be helpful to know if the name is actually Cottonii. I’ve seen it spelled two different ways and I might be missing some search results if the name is not right. In the above study they refer to it as “Cottonii”’ which I believe might be the correct spelling.

Anyway in the study the dosage is specific to the study and not a treatment dosage but they do, good, bad, or indifferent indicate a ratio which has Cottonii 10X Clomid. So that would put me at 125 mg of Cottonii which is extremely doable. I can start there and work up or down based on results.

Also if Nolvadex is an option, looks like based on other threads, Novadex is about half a Clomid dose. Sound right?


#4

OK went on Clomid, about 6 mg a day (yes 6 mg) (don’t like EOD dosing) and Total Testosterone went from 300 to 600 ng/dl. ED mostly resolved however Estradiol went from ~25 to 46 and have side effects from the Estradiol like becoming extremely bitchy and feeling like a little girl.

So obvious question is could I also use a low dose AI like Arimidex along with the Clomid? If I’m able to drop the Estradiol I technically might even be able to use an even lower dose Clomid due to reduced suppression on the HPT axis which would further reduce side effects.

Also was wondering if anyone else has sort of a “scatterbrain” feeling from Clomid like it disrupts short term memory, e.g. you’ll drive somewhere and completely forget why you’re there. When I stop Clomid it goes away.

Incidentally tried Nolvadex and had really bad bone/joint pain from the very beginning so stopped using it. Also used Cottonii with some kind of natural AI and didn’t seem to have any effect.


#5

Clomid is used for infertility. Just curious as to why your Dr. would put you on such a strong medicine. Clomid has major side effects.


#6

Hello…Clomid is commonly prescribed for Secondary Hypogonadism off label. I don’t want to shut down my HPT axis by taking exogenous testosterone.

If you read the introductory comment I’ll try and draw an analogy to someone going through PCT. My secondary hypogonadism was caused by a medical issue, not taking exogenous testosterone, but I’m taking Clomid similar to the way someone would take Clomid going through PCT.

I also take a low dose, only about 6 mg which doubles my total testosterone but also unfortunately increases estradiol which is causing some side effects. Whether someones estradiol is increasing due to exogenous testosterone or Clomid, etc. It seems like a low dose AI might be helpful. Also might allow me to take an even lower dose of Clomid due to lowered estradiol.

Also Clomid vs Nolvadex is apparently more selective and only affects the hypothalamus and one or two other receptors.


#7

What you were feeling was probably the effects of high E2, not a direct effect of clomid. You can try Nolvadex…

Try .25mg anastrozole twice a week or make a solution and dispense by the drop every day.

If anastrozole does not work much at all, then LH/FSH is too high causing high T–>E2 inside the testes where the T competitive anastrozole it outgunned by high local T levels that can be up to 80-100 times higher than serum T levels.

You could do these labs:
TT
FT
E2
LH/FSH

Your TT jumped and so did E2. High E2 might be leading to high SHBG leading to more non-bioavailable SHBG+T that then inflates TT which overstates your T status while reducing FT.

Another factor with E2 is how well the liver is clearing it.

Clomid is a drug and yes there can be sides. Cottioni is also a drug that may have sides surface if a population of guys were using it. New does not necessarily mean better.


#8

What would u day about me where I took clomid raised my t to 500.e2 sensitive was 20.5. Lh was a little more than mid range during clomid. It doubled the lh from pre clomid. Why did my e2 stay so beautiful with no anastrozole?


#9

Don’t know my friend but that is great. You don’t have to mess with Arimidex. I’m not fat but probably 10 lbs overweight. I wonder if the extra fat could have that great of an impact.


#10

Below are results from ~6mg Clomid daily at night. Tried Nolvadex and immediately had really bad bone/muscle pain. Don’t wanna go there again. Cottonii didn’t seem to do anything. All results basically doubled what they were before.

Was wondering if I take a low dose AI would I be able to take an even lower dose of Clomid and achieve the same result.

TT 624
FT 136.7
FSH 3
LH 4.2
DHT 52
E2 46