T Nation

Clomid and HCG for PCT?

So this is interesting and runs counter to conventional wisdom. The tl:dr version is that Clomid and HCG are excellent at restoring testosterone production in hypogonadal men. The problem with the study is when they measured test levels. It was a three month course and they tested at the end of the three months. My issue here is that we don’t have any data after the therapy ended. Once it’s done we don’t know how long the respective subjects retained their elevated test levels. Whether or not this indicates if Clomid and HCG make a proper pct is still up for debate. But it’s interesting nonetheless.

Need to hear your opinion @unreal24278.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/bju.14401

Exactly, there are numerous issues I have with this study… but I’m a kid, not a medical professional… I’m not an expert, but these are the issues I have

  • HCG acts as an LH mimic, it’ll prolong the negative feedback loop already present in one with secondary hypogonadism… unlike clomiphene in which blockade of the ER inhibits negative feedback loops directed towards the anterior pituitary, stimulates the release of LH/FSH… when one goes off HCG, test will drop substantially, back to baseline
  • They aren’t looking at removing the initial cause of the hypogonadism, say I’ve got secondary hypogonadism because I’m obese, have a lot of visceral adipose tissue (leptin resistance, excess aromatase etc, low grade systemic inflammation)… I take the clomid for three months, androgen status improves… but don’t lose any weight… I’m taken off, the variable/factor causing the hypogonadism is still there, everything reverts to baseline… this refers to pituitary adenoma, medication induced hypogonadism… anything…

Clomid was said to be just as effective as HCG or clomid + HCG as “all three treatments were equally effective”… this means HCG is as effective as clomid (but keeps the HPTA shut down), and HCG + Clomid is just as effective as the other two… Well… yea, because you’re not going to have a synergistic effect from the two… that’d be like taking nolva on cycle, saying “well I’m keeping some natty test going”… no you’re not… Physiolojik advocated this to keep spermatogenesis running, that was actually a red flag to me… that’s bullshit, a SERM while crushing LH/FSH to undetectable levels won’t do anything relating to maintaining spermatogenesis on cycle

It’s retarded that they’re doing studies like this, you’d think the MEDICAL community would have more common sense… I recently saw a study in which WOMEN were given testogel in dosages given to men (bout 10mg/day, so lets say 10x what a woman should produce)… All women experienced extensive virilization… SURPRISE… they wanted to see if supraphysiologic dosages of test for women would increase muscle mass and strength… in 2020, I don’t think anyone would argue that it doesn’t, why would we need this study… now a bunch or poor women are now irreversibly masculinised… how did this pass the ethics committee…

I would guess that the female subjects WANTED masculine traits. Probably a study for the transgender confusion pandemic going in.

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ooooooo that’s a very controversial comment to make. I firmly believe there are some born transgender, perhaps not to the calibre of what we see today… but there have been cross dressers, men who felt more comfortable identifying as women for decades and decades… centuries… Neurology is complex, for me to say “no, there’s no such thing as a man who would prefer to be feminized or vice versa” would be incredibly close minded… It’s not something I’m well versed in, I don’t understand it very well and thus I leave it alone

I can say for myself, I could definitely get with a guy… as a matter of fact I HAVE hooked up with a man, and whenever I’m very, very drunk I’ll indiscriminately, yet not inappropriately hit on guys and girls I find attractive (brings out repressed desires I suppose)… I’m not gay, I don’t even think I’m bisexual, but there are certain men I’m attracted to. This was one of the things I was picked on REALLY badly for when I was younger, so I just don’t think about it… ever…

Def far more into girls though, perhaps I’m just sexually frustrated… Supposedly there’s a spectrum regarding sexual orientation, not definite set points.

Heres the study, I was confused regarding a few parameters, testosterone cream/gel (10mg daily) didn’t boost levels upwards of what the same dosage would do for a man… the pharmacokinetics must differ between men and women, but testogel is shit so…

https://www.ergo-log.com/testosterone-cream-gives-young-women-more-stamina-and-more-muscles.html

This is the only source in which I could find the full study at view for free… Not a fan of ergolog, but it is what it is