T Nation

Clinton Admits US Blame on Drugs

[quote]jzzz wrote:
The BBC must have got it all wrong then… the the fire arms are just turning up on there own[/quote]

There are other sources of guns, do you really know anything about firearms?

Drugs may not kill people but man the business really does.
I am from el paso and the death count in the sister city juarez dwarfs that of iraq and afghan. We need to stop the war from entering the us but the mexican people need a revolution will through these fuckers out of power. The mexican government is just a pawn of the drug lords that is were they are getting the heavy guns from.

[quote]jzzz wrote:
The BBC must have got it all wrong then… the the fire arms are just turning up on there own[/quote]

The BBC is very biased and agenda driven. It should not be trusted as a source of information.

Think about this. How do they know what firearms the drug cartels have?

Do you think the Mexican government has a special registration bureau for illegal firearms, so that criminals can register their illegal firearms?

Do you really believe that the drug cartels are volunteering this information?

This is just an excuse to attack gun owners in the US.

[quote]Sifu wrote:
jzzz wrote:
The BBC must have got it all wrong then… the the fire arms are just turning up on there own

The BBC is very biased and agenda driven. It should not be trusted as a source of information.

Think about this. How do they know what firearms the drug cartels have?

Do you think the Mexican government has a special registration bureau for illegal firearms, so that criminals can register their illegal firearms?

Do you really believe that the drug cartels are volunteering this information?

This is just an excuse to attack gun owners in the US.

[/quote]

Exactly

[quote]Sifu wrote:
Think about this. How do they know what firearms the drug cartels have?[/quote]

lolwut

They catch some guys and take their guns, they observe what weapons are being fired at them etc. etc.

[quote]pat wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
pat wrote:
I almost thought she was going to say something smart, but alas,the forecast for hell is still very hot.

We need to legalize drugs, period. We do that, the violence will stop and the drug lords will go broke. Problem solved. Damn that was easy.

Actually, the drug lords will not go broke, they will go legit but I fully agree with the sentiment of what you are saying.

Not unless they become legal residents…If we make all our own drugs domestically, they will get paid for their drugs in pesos. Ah, but your probably right we’d import and they’d go legit, but they would make muuuuch less. [/quote]

They would be laughing at the moment, we get 14 pesos to the dollar. That is a 40% increase in export revenues over the last 8 months.

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
If the US just made drugs legal the pharmaceutical companies would take over and the drug lords would be out of business.[/quote]

No they wouldn’t, they are too well connected politically. Also, if you cut the revenue stream from drugs they would just focus on their other revenue streams (extortion, prostitution, gun running, racketeering etc.)

I still think cutting the ban on drugs helps things.

[quote]AllerCuzine wrote:
Drugs may not kill people but man the business really does.
I am from el paso and the death count in the sister city juarez dwarfs that of iraq and afghan. We need to stop the war from entering the us but the mexican people need a revolution will through these fuckers out of power. The mexican government is just a pawn of the drug lords that is were they are getting the heavy guns from.[/quote]

Speaking as someone living the other side of the border, this is not strictly true. Yes there is political corruption but then again, you have that north of the border as well. The government here is truly trying to fight the drug cartels but it is a losing battle given the comparative financing. The Mexican government is funded by the Mexican population. The drug cartels are funded by the US population. You guys have more money.

Also, the last thing that we need here is another revolution. If we had a revolution, Peje would get in and you would have another total fuck up like they have in Venezuela.

Calderon has actually spearheaded increased efforts against the drugs cartels through the Merida initiative this is exactly the reason that there has been an increase in violence.

[quote]Makavali wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Think about this. How do they know what firearms the drug cartels have?

lolwut

They catch some guys and take their guns, they observe what weapons are being fired at them etc. etc.[/quote]

Exactly, they seize huge ammounts of firearms on a daily basis.

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Makavali wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Think about this. How do they know what firearms the drug cartels have?

lolwut

They catch some guys and take their guns, they observe what weapons are being fired at them etc. etc.

Exactly, they seize huge ammounts of firearms on a daily basis.[/quote]

Are they seizing a bunch of M-16, manufactured in the US?

Or are they seizing brazillian and chinese made assualt weapons?

Cause last time I was in the market for a cheap weapon that sprayed lead, I went with the a Norinko SKS that was of Brazillian origin.

Now, I ain’t no drug lord, but if I wanted to arm a hundred thousand men with a cheap weapon and lots of readily available ammo, I would choose something like that. Cheap and available with no questions asked.

Cause Colt is NOT going to fill an order for half a milion or so assualt weapons to be shipped overseas without at least asking a couple of questions. Not to mention the price tag and lack of availability of .223 or .227 ammo anywhere else in the world(even though I just did).

So, you have a bunch of cocaine, opiates, and guns being manufactured and distributed throughout south america, destined to be sold to the U.S., and the logic is as follows-

It is Americas fault for buying it, NOT the south american drug lords fault for manufacturing, distributing, and enforcing through violence the manufacture and trade of these substances and weapons?

Is that what we are supposed to believe?

Maybe its a difference of problem solving approaches, but I believe in addressing these things from the top down, not bottom up. Also consider that America is not the only customer base for these manufacturer/distributors. The rest of the world likes to get fucked up on south american cocaine just as much as anybody on American soil. Accompany this with the better yield of heroin that the south americans have been getting than the middle east could have ever achieved, being distributed through well established and enforced trade routs- and I believe that these self aggrandizing political bullshit artists are barking up the wrong tree, in the wrong hemisphere, with a completely faulty strategy that even some shmo like me can shoot holes you could drive of a barge full of cocaine through.

I say approach this from the top tier manufacturers/distributors down.

America should should start playing the victim here like Mexico does. We’ve been the target of these malignant drug lords long enough.:wink:

It’s a lot more palatable to the bleeding heart dems too. They love playing the victim of something. Malignant drug lords are as good as anything else.

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Makavali wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Think about this. How do they know what firearms the drug cartels have?

lolwut

They catch some guys and take their guns, they observe what weapons are being fired at them etc. etc.

Exactly, they seize huge ammounts of firearms on a daily basis.

Are they seizing a bunch of M-16, manufactured in the US?

Or are they seizing brazillian and chinese made assualt weapons?

Cause last time I was in the market for a cheap weapon that sprayed lead, I went with the a Norinko SKS that was of Brazillian origin.

Now, I ain’t no drug lord, but if I wanted to arm a hundred thousand men with a cheap weapon and lots of readily available ammo, I would choose something like that. Cheap and available with no questions asked.

Cause Colt is NOT going to fill an order for half a milion or so assualt weapons to be shipped overseas without at least asking a couple of questions. Not to mention the price tag and lack of availability of .223 or .227 ammo anywhere else in the world(even though I just did).

So, you have a bunch of cocaine, opiates, and guns being manufactured and distributed throughout south america, destined to be sold to the U.S., and the logic is as follows-

It is Americas fault for buying it, NOT the south american drug lords fault for manufacturing, distributing, and enforcing through violence the manufacture and trade of these substances and weapons?

Is that what we are supposed to believe?

Maybe its a difference of problem solving approaches, but I believe in addressing these things from the top down, not bottom up. Also consider that America is not the only customer base for these manufacturer/distributors. The rest of the world likes to get fucked up on south american cocaine just as much as anybody on American soil. Accompany this with the better yield of heroin that the south americans have been getting than the middle east could have ever achieved, being distributed through well established and enforced trade routs- and I believe that these self aggrandizing political bullshit artists are barking up the wrong tree, in the wrong hemisphere, with a completely faulty strategy that even some shmo like me can shoot holes you could drive of a barge full of cocaine through.

I say approach this from the top tier manufacturers/distributors down.

America should should start playing the victim here like Mexico does. We’ve been the target of these malignant drug lords long enough.:wink:

It’s a lot more palatable to the bleeding heart dems too. They love playing the victim of something. Malignant drug lords are as good as anything else.

[/quote]

On the firearms point I agree, the idea of Mexican Drug lords going on legal gun shopping trips in the US is a joke.

On the other part, when trying to resolve an issue you need to get to the root cause. US (and other major countries) drug laws create huge profits for illegal producers and distributers. Lets not forget, Mexico is not producing cocaine, it is just acting as a distribution point.

Take away the profitability and you actually damage the criminals. Of course they will switch focus to other revenue streams but it is unlikely that there is anything else as profitable.

I am not saying that the US and Mexican governments shouldn’t be going after the cartels (under the current legal situation) however to call them the root cause is ridiculous.

To Not call them the root cause is ridiculous.

They Grow the Coca, Extract and Refine it to pure cocaine, Package it, then Distribute it.

They have their own damn fleets of ships to deliver it to foreign shores for christs sake.

How are they not the root cause?

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
To Not call them the root cause is ridiculous.

They Grow the Coca, Extract and Refine it to pure cocaine, Package it, then Distribute it.

They have their own damn fleets of ships to deliver it to foreign shores for christs sake.

How are they not the root cause?
[/quote]

Because they do not just so happen to enjoy producing cocaine and got incredibly lucky finding some customers, they only grow it because there are customers.

[quote]orion wrote:
SkyzykS wrote:
To Not call them the root cause is ridiculous.

They Grow the Coca, Extract and Refine it to pure cocaine, Package it, then Distribute it.

They have their own damn fleets of ships to deliver it to foreign shores for christs sake.

How are they not the root cause?

Because they do not just so happen to enjoy producing cocaine and got incredibly lucky finding some customers, they only grow it because there are customers.[/quote]

So they can’t resist the customer base?

They are simply compelled to oblige?

I guess farmers the world over should just change crops and start producing drugs then, by this line of reasoning.
They realy have no choice. The world demands it.

They should also create their own militia and kill anybody who gets in the way huh?

How do you explain that with such amazing powers of reason as you have shown thusfar?

Or is america making them kill people too? They blow up and assasinate their own people and politicians who stand against them or attempt to prosecute, but that is caused by the U.S.?

They just can’t stand against the lure of the U.S. dollar, and that is the only way that they see fit to get it?

You guys with the blame the U.S. for the worlds problems are fucking retarted.

You are seriously fucking retarted.

As is Cockney.

You realy just can’t face a simple fact that the drug cartels are greed driven organizations compelled by their own wants, with no regard what so ever for who they hurt.

You are Fucking Idiots.

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
orion wrote:
SkyzykS wrote:
To Not call them the root cause is ridiculous.

They Grow the Coca, Extract and Refine it to pure cocaine, Package it, then Distribute it.

They have their own damn fleets of ships to deliver it to foreign shores for christs sake.

How are they not the root cause?

Because they do not just so happen to enjoy producing cocaine and got incredibly lucky finding some customers, they only grow it because there are customers.

So they can’t resist the customer base?

They are simply compelled to oblige?

I guess farmers the world over should just change crops and start producing drugs then, by this line of reasoning.
They realy have no choice. The world demands it.

They should also create their own militia and kill anybody who gets in the way huh?

How do you explain that with such amazing powers of reason as you have shown thusfar?

Or is america making them kill people too? They blow up and assasinate their own people and politicians who stand against them or attempt to prosecute, but that is caused by the U.S.?

They just can’t stand against the lure of the U.S. dollar, and that is the only way that they see fit to get it?

You guys with the blame the U.S. for the worlds problems are fucking retarted.

You are seriously fucking retarted.

As is Cockney.

You realy just can’t face a simple fact that the drug cartels are greed driven organizations compelled by their own wants, with no regard what so ever for who they hurt.

You are Fucking Idiots.
[/quote]

First of all, you have no right to control what goes into my body.

I will snort cocaine, place bets and fuck hookers until I run out of money, get impotent or both.

So, you busy bee bastard, suck my dick.

We had people killed over beer wars, now it is coke and heroin. However, as well as alcohol prohibition made Capone flourish so is cocaine and weed prohibition making these drug cartels flourish so you Sir are part of the problem, not the solution.

Are these gangsters scumbags? Yes they are.

But scumbags shall forever be among us and any drug law that does not acknowledge that is wishful thinking at best and PollyAnna naiveté at worst.

edit: I have only snorted cocaine twice. Crooked septum and such, doea not do anything for me. It is more about the general idea of my right to snort it if I wanted to or could derive any pleasure from it.

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
orion wrote:
SkyzykS wrote:
To Not call them the root cause is ridiculous.

They Grow the Coca, Extract and Refine it to pure cocaine, Package it, then Distribute it.

They have their own damn fleets of ships to deliver it to foreign shores for christs sake.

How are they not the root cause?

Because they do not just so happen to enjoy producing cocaine and got incredibly lucky finding some customers, they only grow it because there are customers.

So they can’t resist the customer base?

They are simply compelled to oblige?

I guess farmers the world over should just change crops and start producing drugs then, by this line of reasoning.
They realy have no choice. The world demands it.

They should also create their own militia and kill anybody who gets in the way huh?

How do you explain that with such amazing powers of reason as you have shown thusfar?

Or is america making them kill people too? They blow up and assasinate their own people and politicians who stand against them or attempt to prosecute, but that is caused by the U.S.?

They just can’t stand against the lure of the U.S. dollar, and that is the only way that they see fit to get it?

You guys with the blame the U.S. for the worlds problems are fucking retarted.

You are seriously fucking retarted.

As is Cockney.

You realy just can’t face a simple fact that the drug cartels are greed driven organizations compelled by their own wants, with no regard what so ever for who they hurt.

You are Fucking Idiots.
[/quote]

Firstly you may want to do some reading on root cause analysis.

Secondly, Mexico doesn’t produce cocaine, we are a conduit from places like Columbia.

If there were no market for illegal drugs the Latin American cartels would not be producing illegal drugs. If the cartels were not producing drugs, the US would buy them from somewhere else. If you cannot follow this simple argument then I can produce you an Ishikawa diagram if you like.

[quote]orion wrote:
First of all, you have no right to control what goes into my body.

I will snort cocaine, place bets and fuck hookers until I run out of money, get impotent or both.

So, you busy bee bastard, suck my dick.[/quote]

Easy there shortbus. I’m not trying to control what you do with your body, and I sure as hell ain’t gonna be sucking your dick, you goofy fucking homo.

You want cocaine in your country? Produce it domesticaly. Does that seem infeasable? Well then, you and your countrymen must not want it that bad.

I never said that the consumers weren’t part of the problem, have I?

Simply that they are not the root. But by your line of reasoning, the producers are of no fault at all, they are simply filling a demand. Nevermind the lengths that they go to to do it. That is the consumers fault.

To that I say Bullshit! You are an Idiot. You would rather blame the law that prohibits it use and distribution than the people who commit murder in order to satusfy their own greed.

It isn’t the law that kills people and produces the problems you fucktard, it is the people who refuse to abide by it and actively break it and many others.

[quote]
Are these gangsters scumbags? Yes they are.

But scumbags shall forever be among us and any drug law that does not acknowledge that is wishful thinking at best and PollyAnna naiveté at worst.

edit: I have only snorted cocaine twice. Crooked septum and such, doea not do anything for me. It is more about the general idea of my right to snort it if I wanted to or could derive any pleasure from it.[/quote]

How does a law acknowledge anything? It is a law. Written on paper and agreed(sometimes) to be abided to by the citizens of the land to which it applies.

And nobody is debating your right to snort it, or whether or not it should be available to you where ever you may be.

Like I said, if you and your fellow countrymen want it so badly or just want it available, that is up to you.

But accepting blame as a nation for the acts of criminals as the topic was presented is to me ridiculous when you look at the actions taken by the cartels to ensure that their drugs and money get exchanged.

I don’t think it is worth it. You obviously do think that the availability of cocaine is worth the lives of the people who are dying over this.

Why don’t you accept the blame for their operations? Why isn’t your political equivalent of Hillary Clinton apologizing for your countries involvement in the support of these cartels?

Cause that would be bullshit, wouldn’t it?

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Firstly you may want to do some reading on root cause analysis.

Secondly, Mexico doesn’t produce cocaine, we are a conduit from places like Columbia.

If there were no market for illegal drugs the Latin American cartels would not be producing illegal drugs. If the cartels were not producing drugs, the US would buy them from somewhere else. If you cannot follow this simple argument then I can produce you an Ishikawa diagram if you like.[/quote]

I simply don’t agree with your root cause analysis. Where did the exchange origionate? How could someone have bought it in the first place if it wasn’t produced?

And secondly, there is no secondly. Why would you even introduce a moot point like that? If you have to introduce something stupid like that yyou are just trying way to hard to find something to be right about.

And thirdly, your third point is wrong based on my first point. It was produced before it was ever purchased to go anywhere else.

Save the diagram for someone who you can bullshit with diagrams. I can make one that correlates the existance of pirates with the melting of the polar ice caps, or any other line of crap that can be dispensed via visual aide.

So we shall agree to disagree.

listen numbnuts you stated that ‘they grow the cocoa’ I was just pointing out that you are wrong.

You are evidently someone who sees things as black and white. Evil drug cartels pushing their drugs onto the poor innocent Americans. Well it’s time to wake up and smell the coffee (which is grown in Mexico.)

US politics creates a climate where drug running is big business. Then US politics creates an environment where there is lots of violence around the drug running. Then US media throws its hands up in horror at how violent the border region is. And you buy it hook line and sinker.

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
listen numbnuts you stated that ‘they grow the cocoa’ I was just pointing out that you are wrong.[/quote]

No, you misread. And that is being generous.

[quote]

You are evidently someone who sees things as black and white. Evil drug cartels pushing their drugs onto the poor innocent Americans. Well it’s time to wake up and smell the coffee (which is grown in Mexico.)

US politics creates a climate where drug running is big business. Then US politics creates an environment where there is lots of violence around the drug running. Then US media throws its hands up in horror at how violent the border region is. And you buy it hook line and sinker.[/quote]

Oh, so the U.S. is the only country in the world with laws controlling or prohibiting the sale, distribution and possession of cocaine, Huh?

And it’s Our politics, Huh?

How about Mexicos? It is their govenrment police force enforcing thier own laws and their own political views.

That is what the fighting is about. They no longer want to be the conduit of the drug trade or considered the laughing stock of the international business world.

Mexico is trying like hell to become a first world country and be taken seriously as a global economic entity. Mexicos own corruption got them into this mess, and it is going to take a multinational effort to get them out. Why do you think that they are even fighting the drug trafficing, you numbskull?

They need to become compliant with the rest of the first world international business community! You can’t do business in a country where the black market driven by the drug trade is stronger than the government that you are making trade agreements under.

Your executives get kidnapped, ransomed, and killed, your products fly into the black market by the truckload, and it just doesn’t make any sense or dollars to do business like that.

But hey, it sounds like you have it figured out on your end. At least enough to make the disasterous mess that your country is pallatable enough for you to live in.

Have fun with that.