T Nation

Clen\T3 + W\O Cycle


#1

I understand that ECA is more powerful than clen\t3 with a less catabolic effect, but I am just curious as how how catabolic Clen\T3 is. I did some digging in the forums and in various articles, and it seems that only in the forums it is mentioned that T3 is a "muscle-eater", but not any of the books I've looked over. Is there anyone that has actually tried Clen\T3 not on cycle with good results. I would plan on only 2 weeks of use with a moderate ~15% BF. Also, would the Clen's anti protein breakdown ability counter-act any of the possible, but not confirmed, T3's catabolic effects. However, if T3 is very catabolic, then would a low 25mcg dose be fine for a short cutting cycle w\o anabolics?

Proposed cycle w\ low dosage of T3:
Day 1 - Clen 25mcg , T3 25mcg
Day 2 - Clen 50mcg , T3 25mcg
Day 3 - Clen 100mcg , T3 25mcg
Day 4 - Clen 100mcg , T3 25mcg
Day 5 - Clen 100mcg , T3 25mcg
Day 6 - Clen 100mcg , T3 25mcg
Day 7 - Clen 100mcg , T3 25mcg
Week 2 - Clen 100mcg, T3 25mcg
Day 15 - Clen 100mcg, T3 25mcg
Day 16 - Clen 100mcg, T3 25mcg
Day 17 - Clen 100mcg, T3 25mcg
Day 18 - Clen 100mcg, T3 25mcg
Day 19 - Clen 100mcg, T3 25mcg
Day 20 - Clen 50mcg, T3 25mcg
Day 21 - Clen 25mcg, T3 12mcg

T3 will be one dose in the morning, Clen will be in the morning and afternoon, or +5 hours from the time the first dosage was taken, whichever comes first.


#2

Oh, reason I do not want the ECA stack is that I am ADHD and caffeine affects me differently, at least mentally. I do not "feel" any effects of high sugar\caffeine, but if I have enough caffeine, my heart rate will skyrocket and be very uncomfortable to lift \ do much of anything. All I can feel is my heart pounding if I have a large cup of coffee without the energized side effects. That is why I did not consider the ECA stack.


#3

I pulled this information off another board - I thought it was useful

What is Clenbuterol?

Clenbuterol is a beta-2 agonist and is used in many countries as a broncodilator for the treatment of asthma. Because of it's long half life, clenbuterol is not FDA approved for medical use. It is a central nervous system stimulant and acts like adrenaline. It shares many of the same side effects as other CNS stimulants like ephedrine. Contrary to popular belief, Clenbuterol has a half life of 35 hours and not 48 hours.

Dosing and Cycling

Clenbuterol comes in 20mcg tablets, although it is also available in syrup, pump and injectable form. Doses are very dependent on how well the user responds to the side effects, but somewhere in the range of 5-8 tablets per day for men and 1-4 tablets a day for women is most common. Clenbuterol loses its thermogenic effects after 6-8 weeks when body temperature drops back to normal. It's anabolic/anti-catabolic properties fade away at around the 18 day mark. Taking the long half life into consideration, the most effective way of cycling clen is 2 weeks on/ 2 weeks off for no more than 12 weeks. Ephedrine can be used in the off weeks.

Clenbuterol vs Ephedrine vs DNP

Ephedrine will raise metabolic levels by about 2-3 percent and 200mg of DNP raises metabolic levels by about 30 percent. Clenbuterol raises metabolic levels about 10 percent and it can raise body temperature several degrees.

DNP is by far the most effective fat burner but many people will never use it because of the risks associated with it. It also offers no anti-catabolic benefit. Although it does have anti-catabolic effect, ephedrine short half life prevents it from being all that effective.

As far as side effects, Clenbuterol's are certainly milder than DNP's, and some would even say milder than an ECA stack. There is no ECA-style crash on Clenbuterol and many users find it easier on the prostate and sex drive. This may in part be due to the fact that Clen is generally used for only 2 weeks at a time.

Side effects

NAUSEA
NERVOUSNESS
DIZZINESS
DROWSINESS
DRY MOUTH
FACIAL FLUSHING
HEADACHE
HEARTBURN
INCREASED BLOOD PRESSURE
INCREASED SWEATING
INSOMNIA
LIGHTHEADEDNESS
MUSCLE CRAMPS
TREMORS
VOMITING
CHEST PAIN

The most significant side effects are muscle cramps, nervousness, headaches, and increased blood pressure.

Muscle cramps can be avoided by drinking 1.5-2 gallons of water and consuming bananas and oranges or supplementing with GNC potassium tablets at 200-400mg a day taken before bed on an empty stomach.

Headaches can easily be avoided with Tylenol Extra Strength taken at the first signs of a headache. You may need to take double the recommended dose.

Common Uses

Post-Cycle Therapy: Clen is used post cycle to aid in recovery. It allows the user to continue eating large amounts of food, without worrying about adding body fat. It also helps the user maintain more of his strength as well as his intensity in the gym. Diet: Roughly the same as on cycle.

Fat loss: The most popular use for Clen, it also increases muscle hardness, vascularity, strength and size on a caloric deficit. For the most significant fat loss, Clen can be stacked with T3. Diet: A high protein(1.5g per lb of bodyweight), moderate carb(0.5g to 1g per lb of bodyweight), low fat diet(0.25g per lb of bodyweight) seems to work best with Clen.

Alternative to Steroids: Clenbuterol has mild steroid-like properties and can be used by non AS using bodybuilder to increase LBM as well as strength and muscle hardness. Diet: A moderate carb, high protein, moderate fat diet work well.

Stimulant/Performance Enhancement: It can be used as a stimulant, but an ECA stack may be a better choice because of it's much shorter half-life. Diet: To take full advantage of the stimulatory effects of Clen, Carbs must be included in the diet. Keto diet do not work well in this case.

Precautions: Is Clen for you?

The same precautions that apply to Ephedrine must be applied to Clen, although some people find ECA stacks harsher than Clen. It should not be stacked with other CNS stimulants such as Ephedrine and Yohimbine. These combinations are unnecessary and potentially dangerous. Caffeine can be used in moderation before a workout for an extra kick, although its diuretic effects may shift electrolyte balance. Drink more water if you use Caffeine.

What else do I need to know?

Most users that report bad side effects and discontinue use are those who use high doses right at the start of the cycle. The worst side effects occur within the first 3-4 days of use.

A first time user should not exceed 40mcg the first day.

Example of a first cycle:

Day1: 20mcg
Day2: 40mcg
Day3: 60mcg
Day4: 80mcg
Day5: 80mcg(Note: Increase the dose only when the side effects are tolerable)
Day6-Day12: 100mcg
Day13: 80mcg (Tapering is not necessary, but it helps some users get back to normal gradually)
Day14: 60mcg
Day15: off
Day16: off
Day 17: ECA/ NYC stack

Example of a second cycle:

Day1: 60mcg
Day2: 80mcg
Day3: 80mcg
Day4: 100mcg
Day5: 100mcg
Day6-Day12: 120mcg
Day13: 100mcg
Day14: 80mcg
Day15: off
Day16: off
Day 17: ECA/ NYC stack

Do not take Clen Past 4pm and drink plenty of water: 1.5-2 gallons a day.

All brands are not equal when it comes to Clen, different brands will yield different results.


#4

I personally wouldnt touch T3 without at least some test at a low dose.

150mcg of clen is a rather high and uncesessary dose especially if that is a single dose at one time.


#5

I would be taking it twice thoughout the day, but I'll lower it to 100 mcg as I rather be cautious than reckless. I just read that the average dose was 100-140 mcgs, but I've heard as low as 40-60. I'll just stick with 100mcg Clen and 25mcg T3 while not on cycle.


#6

All in all, I will be using the Clen, thats for sure. However, I still am skeptical about the T3. It's potential catabolic effects are never mentioned in any of the bodybuilding books I've looked over for the entry, but neither is DNP's catabolic effects either. I am fairly certain though there has to be a time frame, diet, and dosage that will allow T3 to be only catabolic to the fat cells, and not the muscle cells. I guess I'll be the experiment on this one if no one has any further comments.


#7

T3 isn't nearly as catabolic as people make it out to be. It almost seems the only people that overstate its catabolic effects are the people that have little or no first-hand knowledge of it.

On that note, both T3 and Clenbuterol are very much overrated, unless you're already below the single digit mark. Bottom line, ECA works much better than T3/Clen for those of us with a bit more fat on than single-digit numbers. And it can be run longer, to boot.


#8

On that note, I guess I will bump up my T3 to 75mcgs and if I notice any muscle loss, I will immediately taper off. I guess this will determine whether or not I will lose muscle this pre-cycle. Regardless, I will put it back on when I get on my cycle. The fascia will be stretch out, so the gains should come back rapidly.


#9

confused did you say you were going to split clen dose daily? or the t-3

i have no experience with either, but ive ran a shit load of alb,

and from anyone ive known to run clen i would say a split dose might make your sleeping patterns...well ..fucked up


#10

My sleeping patterns are already fucked up as is, besides I do have sleeping medicine I can use if necessary. I am splitting up the Clen + T3, I will post on my log the results. I am hoping to get down to 208\212 AFTER I gain my water weight back. Thus, I should be down to 205\208 before I start eating carbs again.


#11

Argh, gotta change my cycle again. I just found this :

http://www.T-Nation.com/tmagnum/readTopic.do?id=1690448

I guess it is proof that it does eat away at your muscle, along with Contrl's first hand knowledge. I will use it, however, I will use it at 25mcgs per day. This should be substantial enough to lose weight without much muscle loss. If the muscle loss seems rapid\large I will end it and just continue with Clen. However, if it seems bearable I will just add the lost mass back on in my cycle in June. Decision is final, check my log for these cycle results, after I start obviously, if you are interested.