T Nation

Clean/Dirty Bulking?

Why the hell is there a distinction between clean and dirty bulking? WTF is clean bulking? It seems like the people who worry and make an effort to inform people that they are “clean bulking” are the people who aren’t gaining weight.

I am going to lay some knowledge on you noobies, so break out your notepads. Bulking is bulking. Bulking implies that there will be some amount of caloric surplus that will lead to an increase in body weight.

What is the goal? Increase in body weight.

How do you do it? Surplus in Kcalories.

If you can hit your surplus eating oatmeal and tuna, great. If you can’t, eat a fucking hamburger. Its that simple. You must do what you have to do to hit the surplus. Do not gorge on donuts if you can reasonably eat a more nutrient dense food and still hit surplus. If you are short, eat a donut.

Why must we overcomplicate things?

you have a black and white view

the beauty of clean bulking is the complexity of it. i mean, imagine we come up with a diet where its ok to gorge as much as we want… while at the same time keeping your blood works clean, and gain weight.

anyone can gain 20lbs in a month by getting drunk and finishing 3 gallons of ice cream every night.

not everyone can do it with grilled meats and steamed veggies.

i myself, am right between it all.

[quote]ZeusNathan wrote:
you have a black and white view

the beauty of clean bulking is the complexity of it. i mean, imagine we come up with a diet where its ok to gorge as much as we want… while at the same time keeping your blood works clean, and gain weight.

anyone can gain 20lbs in a month by getting drunk and finishing 3 gallons of ice cream every night.

not everyone can do it with grilled meats and steamed veggies.

i myself, am right between it all. [/quote]

The problem is that getting drunk and eating icecream as a diet is going to lack a lot of essential nutrients.

My whole point is that you should eat a variety of nutrient laden foods so you can get at the very least 100% of your RDA. This should actually be a lot more concidering caloric overload.

Beyond covering your nutrients, you have a increased calorie need to gain the weight. Do you really think that eating icecream to get the extra calories and eating broccoli salad is going to make a difference? No food is inherantly “bad”. Given the same caloric surplus, the guy who ate a few hundred calories of moonpie isn’t going to look like an incredible fatass compared to salman and brown rice guy.

Sure, crazy levels of dietary cholesterol and saturated fat will raise risk of heart disease, blood pressure, etc. But nobody is recommending eating tacobell 15x a day and drinking a galon of beer.

I think anyone who makes a distinction between clean/dirty bulking is playing a rediculous game of straw man.

[quote]Chickenmcnug wrote:
ZeusNathan wrote:
you have a black and white view

the beauty of clean bulking is the complexity of it. i mean, imagine we come up with a diet where its ok to gorge as much as we want… while at the same time keeping your blood works clean, and gain weight.

anyone can gain 20lbs in a month by getting drunk and finishing 3 gallons of ice cream every night.

not everyone can do it with grilled meats and steamed veggies.

i myself, am right between it all.

The problem is that getting drunk and eating icecream as a diet is going to lack a lot of essential nutrients.

My whole point is that you should eat a variety of nutrient laden foods so you can get at the very least 100% of your RDA. This should actually be a lot more concidering caloric overload.

Beyond covering your nutrients, you have a increased calorie need to gain the weight. Do you really think that eating icecream to get the extra calories and eating broccoli salad is going to make a difference? No food is inherantly “bad”. Given the same caloric surplus, the guy who ate a few hundred calories of moonpie isn’t going to look like an incredible fatass compared to salman and brown rice guy.

Sure, crazy levels of dietary cholesterol and saturated fat will raise risk of heart disease, blood pressure, etc. But nobody is recommending eating tacobell 15x a day and drinking a galon of beer.

I think anyone who makes a distinction between clean/dirty bulking is playing a rediculous game of straw man.[/quote]

it is terribly hard to do a clean bulk.

case in point. crewpierce Physique Clinic…

on the other hand. Dave Tate. thrived on pop tarts coffee and donuts.

not saying anything, just putting it out there

From John Berardi’s article about Dave Tate:

“Oh. My. God. Dave ate around 10,500 calories today with around 450g of fat (38%), around 1450g of carbs (54%), and around 190g of protein (7%). And this was a “good” day.”

You are comparing a guy who took in 10,500kcal to a 185lb guy taking in roughly 3000kcal.

I seriously doubt Dave Tate’s BMR was anywhere near 10k. In fact, I believe the article went on to say he needed somewhere around 5-7k kcals. Obviously you are going to be a fatass if you take in 3,000 kilocalories more than you need a day.

Lets say you had a doppleganger crewpierce. He ate all the same foods that the original ate. But the last 500kcal was a double double cheeseburger from In&Out. Would he not end up weighing the same? The only difference would be some water retention from all the sodium.

I read over your first post and we are pretty much arguing the same thing. Clean bulking is harder, and you should always attempt to eat nutrient laden foods. However, not everyone can hit that surplus from clean eating alone. Hence the filth.

I think what i really intended on presenting was that there is nothing substantially superior about “clean bulking” compared to “bulking”. And if you are “dirty bulking”, you are headed to some heart problems.

i concur lol

[quote]Chickenmcnug wrote:Why must we overcomplicate things?

[/quote]

Because if we never get the details worked out, we don’t have to come up with a plan, which means we don’t have to work!

[quote]Chickenmcnug wrote:
Why the hell is there a distinction between clean and dirty bulking? WTF is clean bulking? It seems like the people who worry and make an effort to inform people that they are “clean bulking” are the people who aren’t gaining weight.

I am going to lay some knowledge on you noobies, so break out your notepads. Bulking is bulking. Bulking implies that there will be some amount of caloric surplus that will lead to an increase in body weight.

What is the goal? Increase in body weight.

How do you do it? Surplus in Kcalories.

If you can hit your surplus eating oatmeal and tuna, great. If you can’t, eat a fucking hamburger. Its that simple. You must do what you have to do to hit the surplus. Do not gorge on donuts if you can reasonably eat a more nutrient dense food and still hit surplus. If you are short, eat a donut.

Why must we overcomplicate things?

[/quote]

I think it depends on a couple of things, metabolism/bodytype being one. If you tend to eat alot without putting on meat, then a dirtier approach is going to make life easier. Take me for example, if i tried to bulk successfully with only oats and tuna, i would have to eat so fucking much i simply would die from boredom/fish overdose. If i eat th oatmeal and tuna after a macdonalds then follow that with a banana and an apple with a chocolate spread sandwich a little later… all is good.

:wink:

Results on highly nutrient dense body building food are probably better, but in the end it all boils down to protein and kcals to support growth.

I think those of us who stress eating clean put more emphasis on remaining healthy overall rather than achieving a certain size or physique. 25 years of putting crap in your body on a regular basis can’t be good on you.

Just a thought?

I think it depends on what you mean by a dirty or clean. I know that personally I ate too “clean” for years and didn’t start gaining again until I relaxed a little and upped my fat intake, but I have a very fast metabolism.

I also am not sold on the “stay around 10% bodyfat” plan, as I seemed to gain more strength and muscle around 12% to 14%. But then again, I lose it very easy so I could care less.

The main problem with a “dirty” bulk, meaning higher fat/sugar diet is 1. not getting enough “other” stuff: protein, etc and 2. fiber and essentials you’ll be missing from veggies. But as far as calories themselves I could eat an entire pizza and not gain fat.

[quote]JFG12 wrote:
I think those of us who stress eating clean put more emphasis on remaining healthy overall rather than achieving a certain size or physique. 25 years of putting crap in your body on a regular basis can’t be good on you.

Just a thought?[/quote]

Yes, to a certain degree.

I stress over getting healthier foods, because I’m an endo and used to be fat, and I just feel better eating whole foods, with fruits & veg more of the time. Eat for a clean bulk for me is, eating enough of the right foods, in the right amounts at the right time - that’s it.

I can’t simply meet my caloric demands for a day with adequate protein, eating anything at anytime to get there - not a fucking chance. I’ve tried it, and I failed.

I am, however, aiming to have a large physique too.

[quote]medevac wrote:
I think it depends on what you mean by a dirty or clean. I know that personally I ate too “clean” for years and didn’t start gaining again until I relaxed a little and upped my fat intake, but I have a very fast metabolism.

I also am not sold on the “stay around 10% bodyfat” plan, as I seemed to gain more strength and muscle around 12% to 14%. But then again, I lose it very easy so I could care less.

The main problem with a “dirty” bulk, meaning higher fat/sugar diet is 1. not getting enough “other” stuff: protein, etc and 2. fiber and essentials you’ll be missing from veggies. But as far as calories themselves I could eat an entire pizza and not gain fat.[/quote]

Also, for me at 13% i look pretty damn good, and at 10% i am nothing short of ripped! I can hold 15% and still have a decent set of abs… so i too don’t stay at 10% BF, never when bulking.

Joe

[quote]rsg wrote:
JFG12 wrote:
I think those of us who stress eating clean put more emphasis on remaining healthy overall rather than achieving a certain size or physique. 25 years of putting crap in your body on a regular basis can’t be good on you.

Just a thought?

Yes, to a certain degree.

I stress over getting healthier foods, because I’m an endo and used to be fat, and I just feel better eating whole foods, with fruits & veg more of the time. Eat for a clean bulk for me is, eating enough of the right foods, in the right amounts at the right time - that’s it.

I can’t simply meet my caloric demands for a day with adequate protein, eating anything at anytime to get there - not a fucking chance. I’ve tried it, and I failed.

I am, however, aiming to have a large physique too.[/quote]

All these last posts have done is prove my theory to be correct, as clean or dirty diets when bulking, are down to body type and metabolism.

Joe

Well you can’t really deny that people who eat a clean diet are going to look at least somewhat more defined/cut. After all, how many of us here have actually been at 10% body fat or lower? I know plenty of people will claim they’ve been at single digit body fat but honestly, most of them bullshit hardcore.

But if say you’re subbing in a whopper for some lean meat everyday for a month, and you think there’s going to be no difference in physique, I’d have to say you’re wrong.

I’m in no way saying that I clean bulk after all it’s pretty damn hard to get enough calories eating clean foods. But I do think clean eating could be the difference between a 2 pack and a 6 pack, assuming caloric intake is correct.

[quote]ZeusNathan wrote:
you have a black and white view

the beauty of clean bulking is the complexity of it. i mean, imagine we come up with a diet where its ok to gorge as much as we want… while at the same time keeping your blood works clean, and gain weight.

anyone can gain 20lbs in a month by getting drunk and finishing 3 gallons of ice cream every night.

not everyone can do it with grilled meats and steamed veggies.

i myself, am right between it all. [/quote]

Good post Chicenkmug. Who wants complexity? Unless you are a glutton for punishment, this should be as simple as possible. I do believe that crap food should be minimized for health reasons. But quality mass is quality mass. You are NOT going to gain quality mass mainlining ice cream and drinking booze like it’s water. And you’re not doing any favors for your health, either.

But you will eating mostly clean meals and adding some junkier food if it makes it easier to reach totals. This is not any easier and doesn’t make those who take this route less ‘special’ than those who EXCLUSIVELY still to meat and veggies. What it is for many is more effective. And that’s the pint.

Idiots clean bulk because they don’t want to lose their abs temporarily.

This doesn’t mean one should live on meat and donuts. You should eat foods that are “good for you”, but sometimes you’re gonna need a Triple Whopper to get in enough calories.

Why eat the Triple Whopper when you can eat walnuts by the pound? Cheaper, healthier, and, in fact, a denser source of calories?

Yeah, he’d weigh the same, but he might get fat instead of putting on muscle. Or maybe not. I don’t know. But the goal is probably not just to gain weight.

[quote]toddthebod wrote:
Why eat the Triple Whopper when you can eat walnuts by the pound? Cheaper, healthier, and, in fact, a denser source of calories?[/quote]

I’m not eating a pound of walnuts to get hardly any calories and no protein. If I eat my triple whopper(Which I will continue to do), I just knocked off 1,230 calories and 71g of protein I DON’T have to worry about.

Not sure why someone who doesn’t want to lose their abs temporarily is necessarily an “idiot”. I don’t think that those of us to claim to “clean bulk” think we’re going to gain mass at the same rate as someone who doesn’t mind an increase in bodyfat, but just because someone’s goals may be different doesn’t make them wrong. Now if they thought they would pack on the mass eating cleanly as easily as someone with a more traditional bulk diet, then yes, they’d be wrong.

PS: a pound of walnuts has nearly 3000 kcal, though it would certainly be a pain in the ass to get them all down (but I think a quarter pound (1 cup) would be a pretty easy 700 kcal snack