[quote]forlife wrote:
More positive news this morning, from the Associated Press:
The Senate has approved the most sweeping expansion of federal hate crimes protections since the original law was enacted after the assassination of Martin Luther King Jr. The legislation broadens federal reach to protect those physically attacked because of their gender, sexual orientation, gender identity or a disability. Current law is limited to crimes motivated by race, ethnicity or religion…
[quote]TKDCadet04 wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
You’re not born gay, so how can you have ‘Civil Rights’ for something you made a choice about. That is like giving murders ‘Civil Rights’ to treat them extra special and put into legislation things that common society does not want them to have.
Because I choose to be descriminated against? Choose to not have the same legal rights if my partner (whenever I do happen to find that special someone) dies? Choose to worry about being ambushed when leaving a leaving gay bar (all of the gay clubs in Richmond have cops posted outside between midnight and 2:30am so no one gets jumped after closing)? Right. I live my life as a proud homosexual, I have accepted who I am, and am lucky enough to have friends and family that support me (to include a very devout southern baptist sister and her husband). I dream of having the loving husband, the 3 kids and a dog, and the white picket fence, and hopefully having the exact same rights as every straight person in this country.
Unless you have lived it, you will never know how much of a choice this wasn’t. It’s a part of me, just like my eyes are blue and my hair is brown. Just like with those, I could choose to cover it up and live my life as a blonde haired, brown eyed straight man, it wouldn’t be who I was born to be and would just be lieing to myself. I pride myself on living a very honest life, I vowed once I came out that I would never have to lie about any part of my life to anyone for their acceptance, and until I was completely honest to myself as well as to others about how I felt and towards whom, I was in a state of constant inner turmoil. Now I live with a sense of inner peace that I never dreamed possible.[/quote]
[quote]stokedporcupine8 wrote:
I’m sure almost no one here will disagree that people in these groups deserve equal rights and shouldn’t be discriminated against.[/quote]
You’d be surprised how many on these boards would disagree with you on that point.
I see what you’re saying, but how would you justify, for example, the extra prosecution associated with a crime’s motivation when it comes to manslaughter vs. murder?
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
You’re not born gay, so how can you have ‘Civil Rights’ for something you made a choice about. [/quote]
There is extensive evidence proving a genetic component to sexual orientation
Even disregarding #1, Civil Rights also protect choices, like the ability to choose your religion without being discriminated against (see Obama’s Muslim example)
[quote]Therizza wrote:
Have homosexuals ever NOT had the right to vote or own property? Or been forced to take substandard paying jobs for which they are over-qualified? Riddle me that, batman.[/quote]
Have blacks ever NOT had the right to marry the person they love, because of that person’s race?
Nonetheless, the idea that a crime’s motivation can warrant extra prosecution is hard to defend, especially when such “hate” oriented crimes are not systematically under prosecuted in the first place.
I see what you’re saying, but how would you justify, for example, the extra prosecution associated with a crime’s motivation when it comes to manslaughter vs. murder?
[/quote]
You can prove this. If a guy buys a gun and it’s on record, then he’s seen surveilling someone’s house from a car incessantly, and then two days later he blows the guy away, you can say that there’s intent there.
However, if I beat the crap out of you outside a bar, it might be because you’re a homo, it might be because you’re irritating and loud, it might be because I’m drunk. Either way, good luck proving it.
Hate crimes are one of the most ridiculous things that this fuckin country ever came up with.
[quote]forlife wrote:
Therizza wrote:
Have homosexuals ever NOT had the right to vote or own property? Or been forced to take substandard paying jobs for which they are over-qualified? Riddle me that, batman.
Have blacks ever NOT had the right to marry the person they love, because of that person’s race?[/quote]
Uh, yea. Good luck being a black guy trying to marry a white woman in the 1830’s.
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
If you are applauding Obama for making these statements, I would advise you to be more careful than you are. I don’t know what his motives are, whether to help the cause or not, but he has not lived up to previous statements he spoke during his '08 campaign.
[/quote]
I think he’s sincere, but actions speak louder than words. Recent legislation against enforcing “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” has been supported by Obama though, so we’re seeing some of those actions already.
More to the point, I wanted to show that I’m not the only one who sees a common cause among gays, blacks, and women when it comes to achieving equal rights.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Being gay describes an activity, being black or female does not.[/quote]
Sexual orientation is an innate characteristic, not an activity. People can fight their attraction to the same gender their entire life, but it doesn’t change their homosexual orientation.
Have homosexuals ever been lynched in public throughout a region of the US for years after emancipation? Wheres the homosexual Emmett Till? Where’s the signs that say ‘Straights’ and ‘Homos’ over water fountains?
Don’t cheapen how far African Americans have come in our country by putting them in the same category as homosexuals.
[quote]TKDCadet04 wrote:
Because I choose to be descriminated against? Choose to not have the same legal rights if my partner (whenever I do happen to find that special someone) dies? Choose to worry about being ambushed when leaving a leaving gay bar (all of the gay clubs in Richmond have cops posted outside between midnight and 2:30am so no one gets jumped after closing)? Right. I live my life as a proud homosexual, I have accepted who I am, and am lucky enough to have friends and family that support me (to include a very devout southern baptist sister and her husband). I dream of having the loving husband, the 3 kids and a dog, and the white picket fence, and hopefully having the exact same rights as every straight person in this country.
Unless you have lived it, you will never know how much of a choice this wasn’t. It’s a part of me, just like my eyes are blue and my hair is brown. Just like with those, I could choose to cover it up and live my life as a blonde haired, brown eyed straight man, it wouldn’t be who I was born to be and would just be lieing to myself. I pride myself on living a very honest life, I vowed once I came out that I would never have to lie about any part of my life to anyone for their acceptance, and until I was completely honest to myself as well as to others about how I felt and towards whom, I was in a state of constant inner turmoil. Now I live with a sense of inner peace that I never dreamed possible.[/quote]
Well said. Why people think anyone would CHOOSE a sexual orientation that makes them an object of ridicule and discrimination is beyond me. You can’t choose who you find attractive.
My partner and I want the same thing any married couple wants. We love each other, and are committed to spending the rest of our lives together. By choosing to be honest with ourselves and our loved ones, we have found happiness and peace in our lives.
Hate crimes are one of the most ridiculous things that this fuckin country ever came up with.[/quote]
And the “hate crime” legislation expanding federal criminal law to prosecute attacks against blacks in the MLK era (the subject of the article) was done because there was (1) high incidents of racial violence, and (2) local authorities turning a blind eye to it.
Neither exists here. There is no national problem of violence againt gays, nor is there any inadequacy to handle the crimes that do happen at the local level.
In short, this is just another solution in search of a problem.
We have a gridning recession, high unemployment, deficits as far as we can see, overseas trouble (Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran), and a feisty debate over cap and trade - and this is what lands on the radar.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
You can prove this. If a guy buys a gun and it’s on record, then he’s seen surveilling someone’s house from a car incessantly, and then two days later he blows the guy away, you can say that there’s intent there.
However, if I beat the crap out of you outside a bar, it might be because you’re a homo, it might be because you’re irritating and loud, it might be because I’m drunk. Either way, good luck proving it.
Hate crimes are one of the most ridiculous things that this fuckin country ever came up with.[/quote]
I’m mixed on whether or not hate crimes are a good thing, but I see what you’re saying.
In the context of this thread, the reason I see it as good news is that it extends protections already available to other minority groups to include sexual orientation, which further supports the point I was trying to make about there being a common cause.
Have homosexuals ever been lynched in public throughout a region of the US for years after emancipation? Wheres the homosexual Emmett Till? Where’s the signs that say ‘Straights’ and ‘Homos’ over water fountains?
Don’t cheapen how far African Americans have come in our country by putting them in the same category as homosexuals. [/quote]
A great point, supported by - guess who - the African Americans themselves. In the eyes of Forlife, et al., blacks - who overwhelmingly do not support gay “civil rights” - are no better than the bigots who attacked the marchers at Selma.
[quote]Therizza wrote:
Have homosexuals ever been lynched in public throughout a region of the US for years after emancipation? Wheres the homosexual Emmett Till? Where’s the signs that say ‘Straights’ and ‘Homos’ over water fountains?
Don’t cheapen how far African Americans have come in our country by putting them in the same category as homosexuals. [/quote]
Might not have been 14, but still killed for what he was.
How is asking for the same civil liberties that everyone else has cheapening how far African Americans have come?
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
forlife wrote:
Therizza wrote:
Have homosexuals ever NOT had the right to vote or own property? Or been forced to take substandard paying jobs for which they are over-qualified? Riddle me that, batman.
Have blacks ever NOT had the right to marry the person they love, because of that person’s race?
Uh, yea. Good luck being a black guy trying to marry a white woman in the 1830’s.[/quote]
Exactly. In 1967, the Supreme Court unanimously ruled in Loving v. Virginia that anti-miscegenation laws are unconstitutional. The laws banned interracial marriage, and in some cases banned interracial sex, similar to laws on homosexual behavior. I actually came out the year that the Supreme Court struck down the sodomy law in Lawrence v. Texas, and have been gratified to see gay marriage recognized in several states since then.
We’re making progress. The struggle for equal civil rights is common among all of these minority groups.
Well Mr. Keydet, his murderers didn’t get off easy, did they? There is no systemic discrimination against homosexuals, unlike what African Americans have had to deal with.
