T Nation

Citizens of the Universe?

Operation Northwoods

“Naturally, the common people don’t want war … but after all it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country.” [Hermann Goering]

“The unwilling, led by the incompetent, to do the unnecessary, for the ungrateful” [found inscribed on a vietnam-era coffin]

“Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. This is not a way of life at all in any true sense. Under the clouds of war, it is humanity hanging on a cross of iron.” [ Dwight Eisenhower ]

“History teaches that war begins when governments believe the price of aggression is cheap.” [ Ronald Reagan ]

“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” [ Benjamin Franklin ]

“During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.” [James Madison]

“War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength.” [Big Brother]

“that’s what they want - regime change - and nothing, not Blair, not the UN, not Hans Blix, not France, Germany, Russia, China, not the threat of terrorism, or Arab reservations, or lack of evidence or the Peace March, not even our own brave Jack Straw is going to stand in their way.”

“to pretend that this battle begins and ends in Iraq requires a willful denial of the context in which it occurs. That context is a blunt attempt by the superpower to reshape the world to suit itself.”

“To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.” [ Theodore Roosevelt ]

“Maybe you’ll
Be president
But know right from wrong
Or in the flood
You’ll build an Ark
And sail us to the moon
Sail us to the moon
Sail to the moon” - Radiohead (Sail to the moon)

“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities” [ Voltaire ]

http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf#search="Pearl%20Harbor%20site%3Anewamericancentury.org"

[quote]ssn0 wrote:
Operation Northwoods

“Naturally, the common people don’t want war … but after all it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country.” [Hermann Goering]

“The unwilling, led by the incompetent, to do the unnecessary, for the ungrateful” [found inscribed on a vietnam-era coffin]

“Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. This is not a way of life at all in any true sense. Under the clouds of war, it is humanity hanging on a cross of iron.” [ Dwight Eisenhower ]

“History teaches that war begins when governments believe the price of aggression is cheap.” [ Ronald Reagan ]

“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” [ Benjamin Franklin ]

“During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.” [James Madison]

“War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength.” [Big Brother]

“that’s what they want - regime change - and nothing, not Blair, not the UN, not Hans Blix, not France, Germany, Russia, China, not the threat of terrorism, or Arab reservations, or lack of evidence or the Peace March, not even our own brave Jack Straw is going to stand in their way.”

“to pretend that this battle begins and ends in Iraq requires a willful denial of the context in which it occurs. That context is a blunt attempt by the superpower to reshape the world to suit itself.”

“To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.” [ Theodore Roosevelt ]

“Maybe you’ll
Be president
But know right from wrong
Or in the flood
You’ll build an Ark
And sail us to the moon
Sail us to the moon
Sail to the moon” - Radiohead (Sail to the moon)

“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities” [ Voltaire ]

http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf#search="Pearl%20Harbor%20site%3Anewamericancentury.org"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_a_new_american_century [/quote]

Ummm… point please?

At least Headhunter explains his propaganda…

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
ssn0 wrote:
Operation Northwoods

“Naturally, the common people don’t want war … but after all it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country.” [Hermann Goering]

“The unwilling, led by the incompetent, to do the unnecessary, for the ungrateful” [found inscribed on a vietnam-era coffin]

“Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. This is not a way of life at all in any true sense. Under the clouds of war, it is humanity hanging on a cross of iron.” [ Dwight Eisenhower ]

“History teaches that war begins when governments believe the price of aggression is cheap.” [ Ronald Reagan ]

“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” [ Benjamin Franklin ]

“During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.” [James Madison]

“War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength.” [Big Brother]

“that’s what they want - regime change - and nothing, not Blair, not the UN, not Hans Blix, not France, Germany, Russia, China, not the threat of terrorism, or Arab reservations, or lack of evidence or the Peace March, not even our own brave Jack Straw is going to stand in their way.”

“to pretend that this battle begins and ends in Iraq requires a willful denial of the context in which it occurs. That context is a blunt attempt by the superpower to reshape the world to suit itself.”

“To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.” [ Theodore Roosevelt ]

“Maybe you’ll
Be president
But know right from wrong
Or in the flood
You’ll build an Ark
And sail us to the moon
Sail us to the moon
Sail to the moon” - Radiohead (Sail to the moon)

“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities” [ Voltaire ]

http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf#search="Pearl%20Harbor%20site%3Anewamericancentury.org"

Ummm… point please?

At least Headhunter explains his propaganda…[/quote]

Well, thanks Beowolf…I try… :wink:

These are all excellent quotes but the subtlety of your point eludes me as well. Explain it to me like I’m a teenager learning Calculus for the first time (hmm…that sounds familiar :).

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
These are all excellent quotes but the subtlety of your point eludes me as well. Explain it to me like I’m a teenager learning Calculus for the first time (hmm…that sounds familiar :).
[/quote]

Playing dumb again?

“Playing”?

[quote]vroom wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
These are all excellent quotes but the subtlety of your point eludes me as well. Explain it to me like I’m a teenager learning Calculus for the first time (hmm…that sounds familiar :).

Playing dumb again?[/quote]

Well, we have to wonder about Herr Reichsmarshal’s quote and its subtlety — I mean, if democracies can be just as easily led into war as dictatorships, why did he and Herr Schicklegruber bother to establish a dictatorship? Seems rather contradictory, wouldn’t you say? I therefore wanted a little clarification on the part of the OP.

What an interesting thread this could be! Possibilities! But then tme showed up…the party’s over…furchtbar!!

You need a point? Step back, be optimistic for the moment. Take a look at that first wiki link, and than think about how you could implement that into todays world, because really nothing has changed. I’d really like to help you man, and I’m doing the best I can. It’s quite fucking obvious.

Stop labeling my threads as propaganda too, thats where that mental block comes into place.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

Well, we have to wonder about Herr Reichsmarshal’s quote and its subtlety — I mean, if democracies can be just as easily led into war as dictatorships, why did he and Herr Schicklegruber bother to establish a dictatorship? Seems rather contradictory, wouldn’t you say? I therefore wanted a little clarification on the part of the OP.

[/quote]

Your a teacher aren’t you? In America. Read, let your mind sizzzle.

My conspiracy book is better than yours, and its written by an Objectivist professor!!

"Each of the philosophic principles essential to the rise of Nazism in Germany has a counterpart in present-day America.

Is the freest country on earth moving toward totalitarian dictatorship? What were the factors that enabled the Nazis to seize power in pre-war Germany? Do those same conditions exist in America today?

These are the questions raised ? and answered, with frightening clarity ? by Leonard Peikoff, Ayn Rand’s intellectual heir, in his powerful book The Ominous Parallels.

“We are drifting to the future, not moving purposefully,” Peikoff warns. “But we are drifting as Germany moved, in the same direction, for the same kind of reason.”

Some of the “ominous parallels” between pre-Hitler Germany and the United States that Peikoff identifies are:
Liberals who demand public control over the use and disposal of private property ? social security, more taxes, more government control over the energy industry, medicine, broadcasting, etc.
Conservatives who demand government control over our intellectual and moral life ? prayer in the schools, literary censorship, government intervention in the teaching of biology, the anti-abortion movement, etc.
Political parties devoid of principles or direction and moved at random by pressure groups, each demanding still more controls.
A “progressive,” anti-intellectual educational system that, from kindergarten to graduate school, creates students who can’t read or write ? students brainwashed into the feeling that their minds are helpless and they must adapt to “society,” that there is no absolute truth and that morality is whatever society says it is.
A student radical movement (from the 1960’s through the violent anti-nukers and ecology fanatics of today) who are, Peikoff maintains, the “pre-Hitler youth movement resurrected.” The radicals are nature worshippers who attack the middle class, science, technology, and business.
The rise of defiant old-world racial hatreds disguised as “ethnic-identity” movements and “affirmative action.”
A pervasive atmosphere of decadence, moral bankruptcy, and nihilist art accompanied by the rise of escapist mystic cults of every kind ? astrology, “alternative medicine,” Orientalists, extrasensory perception, etc.
In an introduction to Peikoff’s book, Ayn Rand describes The Ominous Parallels as, “the first book by an Objectivist philosopher other than myself” and goes on to say that, “If you do not wish to be a victim of today’s philosophical bankruptcy, I recommend The Ominous Parallels as protection and ammunition. It will protect you from supporting, unwittingly, the ideas that are destroying you and the world.”

Nuthunter,

You would appear so much more sane if you yourself could be a little bit more objective about the things you are reading.

Sure, some issues you raise can be characterized in the ways you have quoted, but at the same time those characterizations are themselves very dependent on the ideologies of those making the statements.

If some discussion of issues were to occur, without being for the purpose of promoting another particular ideology, it might be a lot less laughable.

For example, one could discuss the use of “patriotism” as a tool to coerce opinion and action - without worrying about right and left, per se.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Is the freest country on earth moving toward totalitarian dictatorship? What were the factors that enabled the Nazis to seize power in pre-war Germany? Do those same conditions exist in America today?
[/quote]

First, what is the basis of your supposition that this is indeed the “freest country on Earth”? While I am grateful to live here over a third world country where I can walk into any hospital and get treatment I think it is this type of naive, blanket statement that ruins our reputation among other nations.

Secondly, why does there need to be an explicit statement as to what these quotes are supposed to mean? The nature of this type of post, though I am hesitant to freely interpret, is to spark dialogue. Neither you nor I need to be told what and how to interpret what we read. When you teach do you interpret text for your students or are they allowed to learn how to think for themselves? The point I am trying to make is that it is easy to slip into a state of mind where we think we already know meanings especially if we’ve already made up our mind how we feel about a particular issue. Besides this, interpreting quotations without context is pointless, to say the least, because there is no way to ‘know’ what the intention of the quote is. By context I mean where it was said and what was the overall message being said–not the posters interpretation of said quote. It’s all just empty rhetoric when all is said and done.

[quote]vroom wrote:
Nuthunter,

You would appear so much more sane if you yourself could be a little bit more objective about the things you are reading.

Sure, some issues you raise can be characterized in the ways you have quoted, but at the same time those characterizations are themselves very dependent on the ideologies of those making the statements.

If some discussion of issues were to occur, without being for the purpose of promoting another particular ideology, it might be a lot less laughable.

For example, one could discuss the use of “patriotism” as a tool to coerce opinion and action - without worrying about right and left, per se.

[/quote]

Just curious, Vroomie…are you the nut and I found you? Did you fall from that thinking tree that RJ talks about?

I miss RJ and his ripping you to shreds. Come back, RJ!!!

Seriously, though. Have none of you ever read Sartre? C’mon…sheeesshhh!!

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
vroom wrote:
Nuthunter,

You would appear so much more sane if you yourself could be a little bit more objective about the things you are reading.

Sure, some issues you raise can be characterized in the ways you have quoted, but at the same time those characterizations are themselves very dependent on the ideologies of those making the statements.

If some discussion of issues were to occur, without being for the purpose of promoting another particular ideology, it might be a lot less laughable.

For example, one could discuss the use of “patriotism” as a tool to coerce opinion and action - without worrying about right and left, per se.

Just curious, Vroomie…are you the nut and I found you? Did you fall from that thinking tree that RJ talks about?

I miss RJ and his ripping you to shreds. Come back, RJ!!!

Seriously, though. Have none of you ever read Sartre? C’mon…sheeesshhh!!

[/quote]

So he makes a serious post and your response is to, instead of trying to disprove what was said, disprove the person saying it?

I just wanna say, I read the title and thought of He-Man. That is all.

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
So he makes a serious post and your response is to, instead of trying to disprove what was said, disprove the person saying it?
[/quote]

Maybe you should stick around a while first. He has basically one serious post and it is always the same… the death of our civilization due to an ideological viewpoint espoused by Rand et al.

It gets boring to reread his “serious post” over and over again. Sorry you disapprove of my boredom, but I’m sure I’ll see you in the same boat soon.

[quote]vroom wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
So he makes a serious post and your response is to, instead of trying to disprove what was said, disprove the person saying it?

Maybe you should stick around a while first. He has basically one serious post and it is always the same… the death of our civilization due to an ideological viewpoint espoused by Rand et al.

It gets boring to reread his “serious post” over and over again. Sorry you disapprove of my boredom, but I’m sure I’ll see you in the same boat soon.[/quote]

Read Sartre, Vroom. You will then ‘get it’.

Dude, I’ve read a lot of shit in my time.

It’s not that I don’t ‘get it’, it’s that I don’t subscribe to the same ideologies and I’m not looking for or clinging to sources that support my existing viewpoints… like a certain broken record I keep hearing.

[quote]vroom wrote:
Dude, I’ve read a lot of shit in my time.

It’s not that I don’t ‘get it’, it’s that I don’t subscribe to the same ideologies and I’m not looking for or clinging to sources that support my existing viewpoints… like a certain broken record I keep hearing.[/quote]

Alright Mr.Sponge-Bob-Lazy-Pants, here you go. :wink: from Wiki, btw.

"Famous existentialists include Sartre, Nietzsche, Kierkegaard, Heidegger, Camus, Fanon and de Beauvoir.

Existentialism emphasizes action, freedom, and decision as fundamental to human existence; and is fundamentally opposed to the rationalist tradition and to positivism. That is, it argues against definitions of human beings as primarily rational, knowing beings who relate to reality primarily as an object of knowledge; or for whom action can or ought to be regulated by rational principles; or as beings who can be defined in terms of their behavior as it looks to or is studied by others. More generally it rejects all of the Western rationalist definitions of being in terms of a rational principle or essence, or as the most general feature that all existing things share in common. Existentialism tends to view human beings as subjects in an indifferent, objective, often ambiguous, and “absurd” universe, in which meaning is not provided by the natural order, but rather can be created, however provisionally and unstably, by human beings’ actions and interpretations."

In other words, Vroomie, pick an ideology you like, and stick with it. It becomes true FOR YOU.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Alright Mr.Sponge-Bob-Lazy-Pants, here you go. :wink: from Wiki, btw.

"Famous existentialists include Sartre, Nietzsche, Kierkegaard, Heidegger, Camus, Fanon and de Beauvoir.

Existentialism emphasizes action, freedom, and decision as fundamental to human existence; and is fundamentally opposed to the rationalist tradition and to positivism. That is, it argues against definitions of human beings as primarily rational, knowing beings who relate to reality primarily as an object of knowledge; or for whom action can or ought to be regulated by rational principles; or as beings who can be defined in terms of their behavior as it looks to or is studied by others. More generally it rejects all of the Western rationalist definitions of being in terms of a rational principle or essence, or as the most general feature that all existing things share in common. Existentialism tends to view human beings as subjects in an indifferent, objective, often ambiguous, and “absurd” universe, in which meaning is not provided by the natural order, but rather can be created, however provisionally and unstably, by human beings’ actions and interpretations."

[/quote]
Wiki? Come on–can you find a more reliable source than that?

Nietzche was not an existentialist. Do you even know what you are posting? This only speaks to the absurdities of being a rational being. It leaves out the only piece of relevent information with regard to existentialism–that is, man is free to do as he chooses so long as he takes responsibility for the consequences of his actions.

This means that there is no real truth and that I do not have to do that which does not please me so long as I accept that what I do may have negative consequences on me.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
In other words, Vroomie, pick an ideology you like, and stick with it. It becomes true FOR YOU.
[/quote]

Nuthunter,

Other than the critique of your post above… here is a viewpoint for you to chew on.

I do not believe an ideology is sufficient. There are an awful lot of ideologies!

Many ideologies are applicable in various areas or when considering certain types of situations, but to constrain yourself to one ideology or interpretive framework seems a bit weak to me.

Perhaps a simple analogy? If all you have is a hammer, then everything looks like a nail.

Limiting yourself to one ideology is like limiting yourself to one tool when dealing with the complexities of the world, humanity or the universe. You might be able to drive in a screw with a hammer, but it isn’t necessarily a realistic way to go about the job.

As with everything else, it seems more useful to have a wider perspective to draw from. Sure, a theorist or an intellectual may spend a lifetime trying to advance and develop ideological principles, but the rest of us can use the strengths or principles from many ideologies when appropriate and where they are good tools for understanding or dealing with the issues that we face.

You are deficient. You are hammering on screws. No wonder you appear to have some screws loose…