T Nation

Cissus Question for Cy


#1

I was wondering if I could get your insight on stacking Carbolin 19 and cissus. What do you think of Cissus in terms of efficacy as an anabolic at 4-6 grams a day and in terms of safety? Also do you think this stack would be better in terms of adding lbm than compared to using 12-16 caps of Methoxy-7 a day with Carbolin 19. Everything I have read about cissus seems very positive and interesting, but your expertise insight is always appreciated.


#2

Not Cy, but thought I would chime in...I just started taking it and will report my results as things progress...I'm personally taking it for the Anabolic effects, stacked with
another forskolin based product that's a little more friendly to my budget.

In the same vein, I do know several people personally who are having great results with this stack; both from the anabolism and healing/analgesic effects. Good anecdotal feedback so far, without the bloody side-effects associated with so many "designer" muscle builders out there right now.


#3

Thanks for your reply. I would assume you are stacking the cissus rx with camphobolic wich is a good product as well. I would like to know what dosage you are taking and how you feel so far on the stack.


#4

Hey guys, I'm really interested to hear what kind of results you will have/not using these supps. I am using Carbolin 19 and have been on it for about 8 weeks at 4 caps a day. I just started using cissus rx...bout 5 days now. Usually take 6 caps twice a day and on some days depending on physical activity( Lifting/mountain biking)sometimes I take another 3 caps for a total of 5.4 grams. I'm using the cissus for my aches and pains..joint and back related.

The carbolin is working. I feel a thickening and hardening of muscle. I'm more vascular in appearance. Others are commenting. Strength isn't up due to me dieting but recovery is better. I already feel some relief in my elbows using the cissus. I also feel more muscle energy and pumped up. I have more energy going in to my w/o'. Put it this way my mnt biking and lifting have improved since I added cissus. I feel stronger. Again though I'm not lifting heavy so I'm not gaging increases in that area. There is an increase in my output though meaning I have more energy than before taking cissus.

I can't use test boosters cause it inflames my prostate. Even ZMA inflamed it. I didn't enjoy that check up at the Docs. I don't use fat burners cause of cns stimulation. What I'm saying is I finally found an anabolic supp I can use in Carbolin 19 and in cissus, something to help with my achy joints and maybe it will be anabolic too.


#5

Bigpun,

In terms of efficacy, in respect to an anabolic effect, the only thing I've ever seen was a study in the mid 60's in which (immature & growing) albino rats were injected with either an isolated steroid from the plant, or the plant extract. Those injected with the isolated steroid had a tremendous increase in growth, even exceeding that seen with methandrostenolone, while they were maturing, meanwhile, those injected with the extract experienced significant toxicity, leading to death in many cases. This exemplifies the need to isolate the active consituent as often as possible when dealing with various plants as it is not all that uncommon to find a much greater prevalence of toxicity when studying the effects of entire plant or an extract thereof, versus a single isolated compound. Anyhow, those injected with the steroid also increased the rate of fracture healing, leading the researchers to conclude that this was the active constituent.

Two areas to critique would be: 1) The only time this anabolic effect was seen was when an isolated steroid was injected intramuscularly. 2) These were immature rats, not mature adults.

A confirmation of those being valid points was pointed out in a more recent study, evaluating toxicity in adult rats, which found no increase in growth or body weight, despite being given up to 3 grams per kg of body weight/daily, orally, for 3 months.

As for the relief in pain from injuries, this is likely due to a cyclooxygenase inhibitory effect from a few of the constituents in the extract. Anecdotal reports seem to confirm this.

So in short, what little data exists, is limited.

In terms of safety, well oral toxicity, acute and subchronic in animal models look good, but I have yet to see any data evaluating chronic toxicity. The recent data demonstrating potential mutagenic and genotoxic effects from the plant also worries me a bit. Everything considered, I wouldn't use the extract for periods greater than a few months.

So, things that still need to be considered are the following:

  1. Is this steroid anabolic in mature rats when injected?
  2. If the answer to 1) is ever demonstrated in the future to be yes, then one still needs to consider oral bioavailability, as it is going to be limited due to both the lipophilic properties of the steroid and due to first-pass hepatic metabolism.
  3. What is the exact structure of this steroid? Is it something that is already illegal?
  4. What oral dose would be sufficient, yet not cost prohibitive, to elicit a favorable response, despite low oral bioavailability, in humans?

#6

i too have begun a cissus/camph cycle. im using recommended dosage for 7 days so far.


#7

Exactly...Using the max dose of cissus and 6/day of cAMPH...Too early to comment other then the intermittant warm/hot periods.


#8

FWIW, i seriosly doubt anabolic effects from cissus. pain relief on the other hand...


#9

I' running powerfull and cissus right now and so far I'm noticing all of the claims the products are supposed to cover being true. Less aches and pains in my joints. Very deep sleep, great libido, awesome pumps, increase in appetite, and focus. Still only week two so I'll have to wait and see what it does down the road. I will say that the owner is a very friendly guy and down to earth. If I'm allowed to say that?