T Nation

CHY Pulsing


#1

Christian,

Why do you recommend CHY over WHY in protein pulsing, isn't WHY absorbed faster, and why is the dose so small? Do you only need a small amount of the bcaa in CHY to get MPS?

Thanks for your time.


#2

I would suggest going through previous posts before asking a question that’s been answered ad nauseum. Answer is CH is absorbed faster. Relationship is reversed with hydrolyzed protein vis a vis isolates.


#3

Correct. Although regular forms of casein (miscellar, concentrate, sodium caseinate, etc.) are absorbed slowly, casein hydrolysate is actually a lightning fast protein, even faster than whey hydrolysate.

Why the small amount? Because only 12g of CH is required to maximally trigger the anabolic response.


#4

Coo thanks.


#5

I dont really think it depends on the type of protein being used, be it either hydrolyzed casein or hydrolyzed whey. What is really important is their respective properties for being efficient pulsing proteins.

In order to be effective, they need to be rapidly absorbed in order to induce hyperaminoacidemia (which in-turn induces proteolysis)

This can only happen if the protein does not require any substantial digestion when hitting the small intestine.

Hydrolyzed proteins are basically chemically pre-digested proteins (using pancreatin) which are broken into di-and tri-peptides . Once consumed, they effectivley by-pass the stomach and get absorbed as soon as they enter the small intestine.

Now there are actually specific measures and properties in order to determine the degree of hydrolysis and thus the efficiancy of absorbtion - not all hydrolyzed proteins are created equal!.

The most important properties are AN/TN (amino nitrogen/ total nitrogen) ratio and molecular weight.

The AN/TN ratio tells us the number of amino groups formed by hydrolysis in relation to the total (and thus an indicator of the degree of hydrolysis), and molecular weight is an indicator as to its density. You want to pick something with a high AN/TN ratio and the lowest molecular weight possible to ensure maximum absorption speed.

The best (or should I say, most renown) hydrolyzed casein available is probably peptopro, which has an an/tn ratio of approximatley 20%, with a MW of 400 daltons. This stuff is damn expensive, but probably more than adequate for pulsing.

The best hydrolyzed whey protein i’ve found has a an/tn ratio of 25% with a MW of 520 daltons, and probably equally good for pulsing in adjusted quantities.

Considering standard hydrolyzed whey protein has a an/tn ratio of 12% and a MW of 1300 daltons, its not difficult to figure out why people recommend hydrolyzed casein over hydrolyzed whey. These an/tn and mw numbers arnt exactly printed on the packets, and peptopro has such a reputation (read marketing) behind it and is so freely available, its easy to assume that its superior. Additionally, most, if not all the studies i’ve seen so far dont list the properties of the hydrolysate used.


#6

Informative post rifter. I think I’m gonna order some Peptopro to try until Biotest releases their own.


#7

[quote]Rifter wrote:
I dont really think it depends on the type of protein being used, be it either hydrolyzed casein or hydrolyzed whey. What is really important is their respective properties for being efficient pulsing proteins.

In order to be effective, they need to be rapidly absorbed in order to induce hyperaminoacidemia (which in-turn induces proteolysis)

This can only happen if the protein does not require any substantial digestion when hitting the small intestine.

Hydrolyzed proteins are basically chemically pre-digested proteins (using pancreatin) which are broken into di-and tri-peptides . Once consumed, they effectivley by-pass the stomach and get absorbed as soon as they enter the small intestine.

Now there are actually specific measures and properties in order to determine the degree of hydrolysis and thus the efficiancy of absorbtion - not all hydrolyzed proteins are created equal!.

The most important properties are AN/TN (amino nitrogen/ total nitrogen) ratio and molecular weight.

The AN/TN ratio tells us the number of amino groups formed by hydrolysis in relation to the total (and thus an indicator of the degree of hydrolysis), and molecular weight is an indicator as to its density. You want to pick something with a high AN/TN ratio and the lowest molecular weight possible to ensure maximum absorption speed.

The best (or should I say, most renown) hydrolyzed casein available is probably peptopro, which has an an/tn ratio of approximatley 20%, with a MW of 400 daltons. This stuff is damn expensive, but probably more than adequate for pulsing.

The best hydrolyzed whey protein i’ve found has a an/tn ratio of 25% with a MW of 520 daltons, and probably equally good for pulsing in adjusted quantities.

Considering standard hydrolyzed whey protein has a an/tn ratio of 12% and a MW of 1300 daltons, its not difficult to figure out why people recommend hydrolyzed casein over hydrolyzed whey. These an/tn and mw numbers arnt exactly printed on the packets, and peptopro has such a reputation (read marketing) behind it and is so freely available, its easy to assume that its superior. Additionally, most, if not all the studies i’ve seen so far dont list the properties of the hydrolysate used.[/quote]

If I buy the three amino acids in BCAA seperately and mix them together would that be
just as effective as using a pre-maid BCAA product?
Thanks.


#8

FYI
The stuff is bitter as hell! I purchased two tubs myself of the natural flavor and have a hard time getting it down… the things we do… :wink:

[quote]DSQ98 wrote:
Informative post rifter. I think I’m gonna order some Peptopro to try until Biotest releases their own. [/quote]


#9

[quote]krpv wrote:
If I buy the three amino acids in BCAA seperately and mix them together would that be
just as effective as using a pre-maid BCAA product?
Thanks.[/quote]

As I understand it, BCAAs are sufficient enough to induce hyperanimoacidemia, but not enough to sustain proteolysis for a meaningful period. Its action is chiefly due to leucine which has been demonstrated to be sufficient on its own independant of isoleucine and valine. Hydrolyzed protein or an EAA solution is probably far superior to just BCAAs for inducing hyperaminoacidemia and proteolysis since they contain a far greater range of easily absorbable amino acids.


#10

Would protease enzymes mixed with whey be fast enough to induce hyperaminoacidemia? ( no substantial digestion when hitting the small intestine)

GO Biotest!


#11

So for you guys that have been running the “pulsing”, what have been the results?


#12

[quote]justinb19 wrote:
FYI
The stuff is bitter as hell! I purchased two tubs myself of the natural flavor and have a hard time getting it down… the things we do… :wink:

[/quote]

Thanks for the heads up. I’m trying the gourmet vanilla flavor. Hopefully it’s better than the natural. Even if it tastes like dog shit I still think I’ll be able to choke down 12 grams a few times a day.


#13

[quote]Rifter wrote:
krpv wrote:
If I buy the three amino acids in BCAA seperately and mix them together would that be
just as effective as using a pre-maid BCAA product?
Thanks.

As I understand it, BCAAs are sufficient enough to induce hyperanimoacidemia, but not enough to sustain proteolysis for a meaningful period. Its action is chiefly due to leucine which has been demonstrated to be sufficient on its own independant of isoleucine and valine. Hydrolyzed protein or an EAA solution is probably far superior to just BCAAs for inducing hyperaminoacidemia and proteolysis since they contain a far greater range of easily absorbable amino acids.
[/quote]

Thanks for the info. What do you think about these specs on CHY for pulsing:
TYPICAL ANAYSIS

AN/TN x 100:

14.8%

Amino Nitrogen:

2.0%

Total Nitrogen

13.5%

Protein (TNx6.38)(as is):

86.0%

Moisture:

5.0%

Ash:

5.0%

pH:

6.6- 7.2


#14

Interesting post rifter, thanks. Would have been nice to know two days ago before I place an order for some WHY :slight_smile:


#15

Wow, my last 2 replies didnt make it through for some reason ! Anyway, to reitterate quickly.

[quote]DSQ98 wrote:
justinb19 wrote:
FYI
The stuff is bitter as hell! I purchased two tubs myself of the natural flavor and have a hard time getting it down… the things we do… :wink:
[/quote]

The more hydrolyzed the protein is the more bitter it tends to be. 2 quick tricks:

  1. Dont down directly after mixing it, the longer it stands for, the less bitter it is for some reason.
  2. Mix it with some cheap low-cal NO supplement, or any powder which contains malic acid/aspartame - tends to improve the taste somewhat.

[quote]krpv wrote:
Rifter wrote:
krpv wrote:
Thanks for the info. What do you think about these specs on CHY for pulsing:
TYPICAL ANAYSIS
AN/TN x 100:
14.8%
Amino Nitrogen:
2.0%
Total Nitrogen
13.5%
Protein (TNx6.38)(as is):
86.0%
Moisture:
5.0%
Ash:
5.0%
pH:
6.6- 7.2
[/quote]

This would probably work for pulsing, but there are far better available. I would suggest taking 30g instead of 15g per pulse simply due to the low AN/TN ratio which appears to be about half of the better products available.

I have read that anything below 20% still requires too much digestion and isnt worth pulsing - but until there is a study which directly looks at the relationship between AN/TN, MW and MPS then I doubt anyone can say for sure as to how effective it will be.


#16

I bought 2 lbs of Peptopro, gourmet vanilla flavor. The flavor’s neither good nor terrible. The small pulsing amount (12 grams) makes it easy to drink in a couple of sips. I’m pulsing with it about 4 times day and using 24 grams during training.


#17

I guess the next question would be -

Why the hell didn’t they use Casein Hydrolysate in Surge Recovery?


#18

[quote]KeepAwaySheeple wrote:
I guess the next question would be -

Why the hell didn’t they use Casein Hydrolysate in Surge Recovery?[/quote]

Because at the time of the creation of the product (8 years ago) the properties of CHY were not known. In fact it has been less than a year since they have been known.


#19

[quote]KeepAwaySheeple wrote:
I guess the next question would be -

Why the hell didn’t they use Casein Hydrolysate in Surge Recovery?[/quote]

Because they probably didn’t know all this 8 years ago when they made Surge, or it may of just been too damn expensive(it still is).


#20

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
KeepAwaySheeple wrote:
I guess the next question would be -

Why the hell didn’t they use Casein Hydrolysate in Surge Recovery?

Because at the time of the creation of the product (8 years ago) the properties of CHY were not known. In fact it has been less than a year since they have been known.[/quote]

I see. I guess that I need to keep in mind that the science is constantly evolving and that things keep getting better!

It’s too bad that we don’t just know everything NOW! I want the best damn it! :slight_smile: