Christmas is to Celebrate Christ!

[quote]vroom wrote:
Jesus wrote something?

I mean, I have read a lot of things that contain quotes of things that he was supposed to have said…

Where are his direct writings hidden?
[/quote]
Whoops Vroomy, I did not suggest Jesus wrote something, but that he said something “worth writing down or debating.” You made a comprehension mistake there.

Don’t worry about me, I’m doing fine. What’s to be afraid of anyway, except maybe not knowing where you are going after you die.

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
Whoops Vroomy, I did not suggest Jesus wrote something, but that he said something “worth writing down or debating.” You made a comprehension mistake there.[/quote]

Actually, I know (and knew) what you said, but it made something clear to be about the longevity of current religions.

Perhaps your beliefs won’t let you see it, but technology has allowed religion to freeze in it’s development.

Now, generally, considering religion something that is developing along with humanity - which has become restricted - opens up a series of interesting thoughts and realities with respect to conflicts between societies and religion.

Unless religion is allowed to evolve it will eventually be put aside or replaced. So, maybe it will take another two thousand years, but eventually a new more successful meme will be adopted, perhaps out of necessity due to the ongoing strife in the world.

Very interesting indeed.

FYI, I don’t see this as counter to religion because when you look across religions they are generally just describing what fairly enlightened people generally already know and believe anyway.

Look after each other. Be good to each other. Other similar ideas… too bad something so good can end up so bad in the hands of people.

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
That’s why I asked if Horus had ever said anything worth writing down or debating. Quite unlike Jesus Christ, he did not.[/quote]

As a matter of fact, he did. The 42nd chapter of the Egyptian Book of the Dead contains a wealth of sayings and parables uttered by Horus concerning his work on earth, his heavenly father Osiris, sin and salvation. They were recorded by Taht-Matiu. Whether you consider them worthy of debate is for you to judge, but you have most assuredly read them. You would know them as Chapter 25 of the Gospel according to Matthew.

[quote]I date first mention of the Redeemer from the Book of Job. Maybe you date the Book of Job different than I do though. No matter.
[/quote]

The Book of Job likely has its origins as a Sumerian parable entitled “Man and his God”, and estimates of the date of authorship of its present form, and inclusion in the Hebrew canon, range from the reign of King David and Solomon (ca. 1011-928 BC), and the Baylonian Exile (597-537 BC). Either way, considerably less than 3,500 years. But as you say, it doesn’t really matter.

You are not the first Christian to assume that the “Redeemer” mentioned in Job 19:25 is Jesus, but in fact this word (haggo’el in Hebrew) is a common epithet in the Old Testament for Yahweh.

The go’el in Hebrew culture was the vindicator, the person who would avenge a wrongdoing. If a Hebrew was murdered, his next of kin would be the go’el, and kill the murderer. A go’el might also buy the freedom of a kinsman who sold himself into slavery, or pay off the mortgage on a kinsman’s land.

Job suffered a tremendous injustice, but he is confident that he will be vindicated by God in the end. Hence his use of this term.

Yahweh is mentioned throughout the psalms as the go’el of Israel, who will stand up for his chosen people and avenge them. In the 19th psalm, David refers to “Adonai tsuri v’go’ali”, “Lord, my rock and redemption”. Do you think that David was singing this psalm of praise to his god, or to his descendent, still forty generations unborn?

[quote]vroom wrote:

Anyway Chen, something to stew about, today’s religion is tomorrows mythology.
[/quote]

It would be ironic if, three hundred years from now, the American emperor were to see a vision of David Koresh in the Rose Garden, and proclaim Branch Davidianism to be the only legal religion of the Galactic Empire.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
You would know them as Chapter 25 of the Gospel according to Matthew.[/quote]
Interesting conjecture, but I disagree.

Nonsense, the book is much older, more like 1500 BC.

Assumption is your word, I call it systematic doctrine. And yes, Jesus Christ is God manifest in the flesh, so the Hebrew haggo’el is appropriate. As Job said He shall “stand at that latter day upon the earth.” I clear reference to the coming Messiah.

By the way, there is no need for the Hebrew lessons on my account, as I have studied it formally. But then again, maybe Vroom can learn something.

I do take it as prophetic as well as literal. Obviously anything in the OT that refers to the Messiah is prophetic. Most prophecies in the OT are of this nature, that is, they have a literal meaning, as well as prophetic. It’s an amazing book.

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:

Interesting conjecture, but I disagree.[/quote]

What a surprise. You already compared the two documents, then, I take it.

The Sumerian parable on which it was based is older still, more like 2000 BC. However, the Hebrew version is no older than 1000 BC, if that.

Remarkable how much that sounds like “systematic doctoring.”

Or rather, a clear indication of Job’s belief that when he died, he would meet his god.

Mazel tov.

I see you believe in miracles (sorry, Vroom!).

I agree that it is an amazing book. I am amazed by it constantly. However, I think King David would be even more amazed to learn that his psalms referenced the Messiah, a concept that would not enter the belief system of Judaism for another 500 years.

Mr. Chen. My main problem with your argument is that you use a later text to interpret an earlier one. This is one of the big no-no’s of quellenkritik(source criticism). It is of course fine as an expression of faith, but as a line of argumentation it goes nowhere. Another no-no is where a text internally contradicts a common interpretation.

If you look at Varqanir’s statements he has identified previous occurrences of similar stories. This does not prove a connection, but if there is credible evidence of cultural contact, (e.g. Egypt/Judea as opposed to Mayans/Chinese), there is a major question about the independence of the later text.

Let me add some examples, that I am happy to have challenged.

Looking at the Old Testament in isolation, Heaven is not a destination, Satan is a servant of God, Hell does not exist, and Elijah kept on working on Earth after his assumption. Resurrection does show up in 2 Maccabbee (1st century B.C), in the context of a family being tortured to death for their faith by the King. As we know from our own century, this is the kind of emotional situation that makes people search for reasons why God lets it happen.

Seen from the viewpoint of Pauline Christianity, all these texts are interpreted in a different way.

As Varqanir hinted,we have previous evidence of Hell (Greek myth), life after death (Egypt/Mesopotamia), a Satan as counterforce to God (Persia), but the concepts seem to have been rejected in Jewish faith.

[quote]TQB wrote:
Mr. Chen. May main problem with your argument is that you use a later text to interpret an earlier one. [/quote]

I am afraid that the dating of ancient texts is an imprecise science. Also, I have not interpreted these earlier texts as you say, only denied the relationship that Varqanir seems to suggest must be true, that the latter is necessarily influenced by the earlier. I am sorry, but this is not a given, even if there is cross-cultural exchange.

You should also be aware of that, the time a tradition, belief, etc., is put to paper, does not necessarily indicate the time of it’s inception, or even popularization. Some beliefs exist a long time in oral form before put down on paper, which may be very hard to gauge. We rely on extant documents very much because they are hard evidence, but they cannot tell the whole story.

Gentlemen, you may enjoy studying this stuff as I, but be careful of your motivations for receiving one scholar’s opinion as the correct one. Of course, knowledge is good, but remember, “knowledge puffeth up.”

And, “of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.”

It has been an interesting discussion; I hope your diligence profits you both. I will bow out here.

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:

It has been an interesting discussion; I hope your diligence profits you both. I will bow out here.

[/quote]

Fair enough. Merry Christmas.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Mr. Chen wrote:

It has been an interesting discussion; I hope your diligence profits you both. I will bow out here.

Fair enough. Merry Christmas.[/quote]

Thanks to both of you. Merry Christmas

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Mr. Chen wrote:

It has been an interesting discussion; I hope your diligence profits you both. I will bow out here.

Fair enough. Merry Christmas.[/quote]

Varq,

Are you a Theology prof, teaching in Japan? Your wealth of knowledge with these matters is outstanding. If its okay to ask…

Also, can you point toward a good read?

Pookie was correct with regard to Wikipedia, btw! :wink:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

Varq,

Are you a Theology prof, teaching in Japan? Your wealth of knowledge with these matters is outstanding. If its okay to ask…

Also, can you point toward a good read?

Pookie was correct with regard to Wikipedia, btw! :wink:

[/quote]

Well, thank you, Headhunter. We’ve come a long way from the “Young People are Fascinating” thread, haven’t we? Haha.

No, not a professor of theology. I’m just someone who is mightily interested in history, languages, and ancient legends.

A good read, huh? You mean you’ve already read through that stack of history books I recommended to you a few months ago? So what’s it to be this time? Theology? Mythology? Cosmology?

Give me an idea of what you’re after and I’ll see if I can find something you’d like.

I feel smarter for reading Varq’s posts.

[quote]vroom wrote:
Mr. Chen wrote:
Whoops Vroomy, I did not suggest Jesus wrote something, but that he said something “worth writing down or debating.” You made a comprehension mistake there.

Actually, I know (and knew) what you said, but it made something clear to be about the longevity of current religions.

Perhaps your beliefs won’t let you see it, but technology has allowed religion to freeze in it’s development.

Now, generally, considering religion something that is developing along with humanity - which has become restricted - opens up a series of interesting thoughts and realities with respect to conflicts between societies and religion.

Unless religion is allowed to evolve it will eventually be put aside or replaced. So, maybe it will take another two thousand years, but eventually a new more successful meme will be adopted, perhaps out of necessity due to the ongoing strife in the world.

Very interesting indeed.

FYI, I don’t see this as counter to religion because when you look across religions they are generally just describing what fairly enlightened people generally already know and believe anyway.

Look after each other. Be good to each other. Other similar ideas… too bad something so good can end up so bad in the hands of people.[/quote]

Dude, you’ve mellowed. In between Alpha Male cycles? lol.

For the most part I have to say bravo to those debating on this thread. Nice friendly debate on both sides gentlemen. Would love to get you all together in a pub for a beer and discuss more.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Headhunter wrote:

Varq,

Are you a Theology prof, teaching in Japan? Your wealth of knowledge with these matters is outstanding. If its okay to ask…

Also, can you point toward a good read?

Pookie was correct with regard to Wikipedia, btw! :wink:

Well, thank you, Headhunter. We’ve come a long way from the “Young People are Fascinating” thread, haven’t we? Haha.

No, not a professor of theology. I’m just someone who is mightily interested in history, languages, and ancient legends.

A good read, huh? You mean you’ve already read through that stack of history books I recommended to you a few months ago? So what’s it to be this time? Theology? Mythology? Cosmology?

Give me an idea of what you’re after and I’ll see if I can find something you’d like. [/quote]

Alright, I get it, I get it. I’m actually interested in the view that Jesus may not have existed at all. I can google it of course but if you’d allow me to pick you brain…

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
I’m actually interested in the view that Jesus may not have existed at all. I can google it of course but if you’d allow me to pick you brain…[/quote]

If you’ll allow me to butt in for a sec, this website has a nice summary of the various arguments for Jesus being an entirely mythical being: http://jesusneverexisted.com/

The tone used to be a little more objective and a bit less sarcastic, but it still has a good compendium of various sources debating the idea.

[quote]vroom wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
No, are you?

Yes you are. I think your rabid “Christianity” is an attempt to repress your homosexuality.

Keep trying man, it’s not totally buried yet![/quote]

Christ loves gays also. What, are you homophobic vroom? Maybe it is you who are repressing some rump-ranger tendencies?

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
No, not a professor of theology. I’m just someone who is mightily interested in history, languages, and ancient legends. [/quote] …And the right to keep and bear arms, AND hot Asian babes! Can’t forget that.

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
Christ loves gays also. What, are you homophobic vroom? Maybe it is you who are repressing some rump-ranger tendencies?
[/quote]

No, I’m just trying to help Steveo… err… come to grasp with his issues, so to speak.