T Nation

Chinese thieves - Please read

Pls watch Lou Dobbs on CNN tonite, it starts at 6 pm.

They are running a story called “Chinese thieves steal American technology- and Bush does nothing about it”

It involves a friend of our family who owns a company called “Motion Systems Corp.”

They build “moving systems” used primarily in aircraft but also in smaller things such as dentist’s chairs, hospital beds, etc.

2-3 yrs ago, they discovered that a CHinese factory is copying their patented aircraft systems and selling them at 1/10 the price!

They don’t even attempt to hide it, they copy the parts EXACTLY- THEY EVEN COPY THE “MOTION SYSTEMS” NAME AND LOGO ON THE PARTS!!
Can u believe that? They don’t even take off the logo!

Motion Systems asked the Dep’t of COmmerce to do something about. They refused to even investigate - even though it is blatant thievery.

Furious, Motion Systems then sued Bush and the Federal GOv’t for not putting a stop to it, and for putting Chinese interests and foregin policy ahead of AMERICAN interests.

Guess what? A federal judge struck the lawsuit down before it went to trial!

THe entire Lou Dobbs show is dedicated to “Exporting America” and they will interview Senate Minority Leader Tom Daschle, D-South Dakota, to talk about the outsourcing of U.S. jobs overseas.

Anyway, these pieces of shit in China are getting away with it. They are stealing more American jobs not to mention AMerican hard work and know-how.

These parts are all built in America, in NJ. Mr. Wolf, the owner, has told me he will never build the parts elsewhere, even though his profits would soar. He is already a millionaire many times over, and he is one of the few people in business who actually has a conscience and believes that keeping well-paying jobs in the US is more important than a few people who are already wealthy making even more money while screwing over many people.

He is an AMerican success story: a guy w/ 3 engineering degress, whose dad was a car mechanic, who invented these systems and built on his ideas, thus becoming a success. Not a thief, but a man who did things right.

Watch the show, get angry, and then think about what we can do about it!

Read this quote, taken from the Lou Dobbs Website:

“The things that will destroy us are: politics without principle; pleasure without conscience; wealth without work; knowledge without character; business without morality; science without humanity; and worship without sacrifice.”

-MAHATMA GANDHI (1869-1948)

china wins 1st place for corporate/military espionage… honorable mention goes to israel and france… and no one does anything about it… i wonder why…

Damn, nobody has any comments?

Don’t wait until you’re unemployed before you post your thoguhts.

Oh yeah, H&R Block is outsourcing the filling out of Tax returns to India!

Some guy from another country is going to be filling out YOUR tax returns folks. That’s scary. I’m sure Sanjib will do the best he can in saving you money though …

And nobody gives a shit…what about everybody from the Patriot post?

This kind of thing is rampant in China. See http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/26/60II/main595875.shtml.

Btw, according to the CIA, the Chinese GDP will surpass the U.S.A.'s GDP around the year 2010. China, with a GDP of about $6 trillion in 2002, has a real growth rate of 8%. The U.S., with a GDP of about 10.5 trillion in 2002, has an estimated real growth rate of 2.4%.

Highwaystar1, people have disagreed with those GDP estimates, but even if they’re true, they will be modified by the fact that most of China will still be rural and starving and not producing hardly anything. China will have many expenses.

Sonny S, I’ll watch Lou Dobbs.

There is a wealth of related information at the PBS website for Bill Moyer’s program NOW:
http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/index.html

It is frustrating - and Bush (and Clinton to some extent before him, Bush I before him) won’t put their foot down on China because of the corporate control on DC.

Wal-Mart is China’s 5th largest trading partner, ahead of many other countries. The Walton family is worth in excess of $100 Billion, and are the largest employer aside from the Fed. Gvmt. in the US - you think THEY might have some influence over not pressuring China?

You can really go down the rabbit hole with this one if you choose.

Offshoring is an interesting topic. As someone in the software industry my first reaction is certainly to be frightened. But in any industry you do have to realize you may be obsoleted – first it happened to the farmers, then the people in manufacturing…

Here’s a collection of articles on offshoring high tech work:
http://www.stc-siliconvalley.org/offshoring/

Kerry, or rather Mrs. Kerry, is actually invested in Walmart.

His wife Teresa told a group of women in St. Paul, “Another thing that drives me crazy, and I hope I don’t offend anyone here, is WAL-MART. They destroy communities.” But she actually has over a million dollars in Wal-Mart Stock which she bought throughout 2002.

It’s funny to see the republican gym rats talking about China (by which I mean no offense). Well, in politics, there is never wrong doing as long as it benefits a country in a long run, it doesn’t matter if it is United States or PRChina. Bush doesn’t give a shit for diplomatic reasons, but it is quite a generalization and rather racially instigating to call “Chinese Thieves.”

I am from China myself and I know about the fast growing GDP as well as the tiny pitiful per capita, but before making any assumptions, I’d like everyone to know that China is not starving and not really that short of women (somebody told me that everybody was going to be gay in China because there were so few women as people were assumed to kill babies), and we don’t necessarily have short penes. Racial (and national) stereotypes used to irritate me in the first couple of years that I was in the States but after a while I just found it not necessary because of people’s ignorance.

Back to the subject, I would be proud if the Chinese could be a leading espionage country because I’m tired of the fact that spy stories always revolve around US UK and former USSR. By any means it doens’t officially make China a thief because everybody does it. As a matter of fact the Chinese government arrests a couple or three American spies each year whenever China wants something from US. The same game is played by the White House.

Yes, China does have one of the worst copy right protections among major countries, partly because copy right piracy creats needed jobs in China where million workers got “laid off.” Funny that Microsoft is the one who’s actually executing copy right orders instead of the Chinese government, but hey, you wouldn’t care if you could get Windows XP Proffesional Edition for only 8 (Chinese) bucks (which is, exhilarately for us, about only 1 dollar); without all those “FBI WARNING” slashes, copy right piracy would also flourish in US; as a matter of fact, several American (white middle class) friends of mine have requested such “theft” of purchases when I go back for a visit. I’m not trying to find excuse for such situation, I don’t believe it benefits economy in a long run neither (actually it is the reason for the recession in Chinese film and software industry), but just trying to understand human nature, especially when an average Chinese earns less than 1/10 of an average American, a pirate copy of Dreamweaver MX or whatever does a lot for us.

Okay, the 15 dollar faux Rolex is really a laughingstock. But it is a fact that one out every two merchandises in a American store is made in China. The unappreciated irony more or less represents a fact that China and United States are mutually dependent. America is the second largest export country for China, and I forget the current number for China about America’s import countreis.

Yeah, now I’m way off. But the title “Chinese Thieves” does offended me a little bit. Well, the Chinese bash Americans on Chinese forums all the time, and I don’t expect the different from Americans, but I just hope to see less name-callings and more friendliness, coz I’ve seen enough spit-wara already in a lot of other places, and it’s not pleasant.

It’s funny to see the republican gym rats talking about China (by which I mean no offense). Well, in politics, there is never wrong doing as long as it benefits a country in a long run, it doesn’t matter if it is United States or PRChina. Bush doesn’t give a shit for diplomatic reasons, but it is quite a generalization and rather racially instigating to call “Chinese Thieves.”

I am from China myself and I know about the fast growing GDP as well as the tiny pitiful per capita, but before making any assumptions, I’d like everyone to know that China is not starving and not really that short of women (somebody told me that everybody was going to be gay in China because there were so few women as people were assumed to kill babies), and we don’t necessarily have short penes. Racial (and national) stereotypes used to irritate me in the first couple of years that I was in the States but after a while I just found it not necessary because of people’s ignorance.

Back to the subject, I would be proud if the Chinese could be a leading espionage country because I’m tired of the fact that spy stories always revolve around US UK and former USSR. By any means it doens’t officially make China a thief because everybody does it. As a matter of fact the Chinese government arrests a couple or three American spies each year whenever China wants something from US. The same game is played by the White House.

Yes, China does have one of the worst copy right protections among major countries, partly because copy right piracy creats needed jobs in China where million workers got “laid off.” Funny that Microsoft is the one who’s actually executing copy right orders instead of the Chinese government, but hey, you wouldn’t care if you could get Windows XP Proffesional Edition for only 8 (Chinese) bucks (which is, exhilarately for us, about only 1 dollar); without all those “FBI WARNING” slashes, copy right piracy would also flourish in US; as a matter of fact, several American (white middle class) friends of mine have requested such “theft” of purchases when I go back for a visit. I’m not trying to find excuse for such situation, I don’t believe it benefits economy in a long run neither (actually it is the reason for the recession in Chinese film and software industry), but just trying to understand human nature, especially when an average Chinese earns less than 1/10 of an average American, a pirate copy of Dreamweaver MX or whatever does a lot for us.

Okay, the 15 dollar faux Rolex is really a laughingstock. But it is a fact that one out every two merchandises in a American store is made in China. The unappreciated irony more or less represents a fact that China and United States are mutually dependent. America is the second largest export country for China, and I forget the current number for China about America’s import countreis.

Yeah, now I’m way off. But the title “Chinese Thieves” does offended me a little bit. Well, the Chinese bash Americans on Chinese forums all the time, and I don’t expect the different from Americans, but I just hope to see less name-callings and more friendliness, coz I’ve seen enough spit-wara already in a lot of other places, and it’s not pleasant.

chevrox

You really hit the nail on the head. Why does it take about 8 Chinese Yuan to buy 1 US Dollar? And why does the Chinese Yuan not move against the US Dollar?

China runs a huge current account surplus with America.

The current account is basically exports - imports. On net China is exporting goods and services to America. The main reason for this is Chinese exports to America are cheap because of the low value of the Yuan relative to the US Dollar.

The current account + capital account must equal zero.

Thus America runs a huge capital account surplus with China. Basically on net America is exporting capital to China. Capital includes financial capital, which is basically money. But it also includes physical capital, which includes all the means of production (i.e. factories, offices, commodities and JOBS).

Under the current fiat currency system the only way for the current account and the capital account to balance is an exchange rate change. With the Yuan pegged to the Dollar this is not happening and as such America is going to be exporting capital to China well into the future.

The rest of the world also suffers in the same way from an artificially low Yuan.

Japan and other Asian nations also have pegged their currencies to the US Dollar at below market rates.

America ran a 43.1 billion dollar trade (a sub set of current account) deficit in January alone. China accounted for a large and GROWING percentage of this. This means that AT LEAST 43.1 billion dollars of capital left America in January alone. The current account runs at about 500 billion each year, thus 500 billion dollars of capital are leaving America each year.

In pegging their currencies to the US Dollar, China and others buy US Dollars and then feed them into US treasuries (government debt). The federal government alone runs a 500 billion dollar defect. Without the buying from China and others (who try and peg their currencies) it would have trouble funding its expensive schemes (at least at current interest rates of 1%). As such the federal government it is in not hurry to do anything about the current arrangements.

-I did not once make any racial overtones in my message, do not try to paint it as such.
I am not the type to write something like
“Wing Pei Motor Industries of Shanghai in dispute with US Manufacturer” as the head of my message.
Chinese thieves is much more effective and is the truth.
My message was about Chinese thieves stealing American technology and selling it for ridiculously low prices. And even worse, the Dept of COmmerce which has done nothing to stop what is blatant thievery. ANd a small/medium US corporation suing the gov’t for their blatant favoritism of China.
This has been going on forever, and it is one of the many problems plaguing the American worker and the American job market.
-RE: Microsoft. Fuck Microsoft. They make a flawed product that is also user-unfriendly. THey have already outsourced jobs to India, and they have a stranglehold on the US computer industry. It is very difficult to work on another OS other than WIndows- which they copied from Apple to begin with.
-I am protectionist, not Republican by a long shot. I do not fit into any superificial, artificial, “party”. I am quite liberal on some issues, conservative on others.

-RE: Chinese jobs and economy, that is very little of my concern.

-Actually, last Sunday morning on Canal St. the Chinese (and African) guys were selling genuine Rolexes at $8 - the price has dropped from $15. :slight_smile:

Ha ha
Welcome to the 21st century. There’s a new superpower in town and there’s nothing America can do to stop it. I think the world needs a bit of balance. China is trying to make progress recently cutting the number of death sentences handed out by its courts in order to be seen to be more humanitarian. There is still a long way to go of course, but at least they are heading in the right direction. Not good for America of course but its nice to see someone being able to stand up to the might of the US.

Bluey, I am not an economics expert, I only wrote such from the aspect of a lay man who enjoys coke and burgers. I know the Manufature Association is constantly urging the congress to take action against the Chinese currency control. Frankly I don’t fully understand the financial trick they played in the control, and neither does my economics professor. But the danger of the currency control could be arbitrary and overstated conclusion; actually a lot of western economics argue in favor of the currency control as well. Yeah, it is very convenient to make China a scapegoat for all the depression in every country, but it is also politics. Everybody knows that China would not easily change its policy on such matter, so politicians can say, hey, we tried, but it’s after all China’s fault and we can’t do a damn thing about it. So the accuracy of this theory could never be proven and China keeps being blamed and hated. Japan as well as Taiwan uses the same tactics Bush did, stating that all jobs and capitals go to China, but it is more or less only seeking an excuse for the nation’s own problems.

The capital shifting cross border is a global trend and a result of competition. But manufacturers don’t move their greens to a country solely on the price of labor and resource. Southeastern Asian countries have even lower currency rate than China does, but I see Americans crazily moving their manufacture there. Political, social, and economical stability is one of the most important factor two, and China is able to provide that, partly because of the currency control. It is a common accordance that the steady exchange rate of Chinese currency kept Asia’s economy from collapsing during the depression, in order to do so China mobilized gobs and gobs of gold from its national reserve, but who the hell got hurt? Nobody.

Japan, Taiwan, and United States instigate the theory of the evil currency control, but most who’s smart enough to be in control of an international corporation would know the unnecessity of that. So the politicians produce passionate speeches against the Chinese currency to creat a political climate of hostility towards China, who knows what that is for. Maybe just to shift people’s attention from their own inefficient policies, maybe for political supports, or maybe to populously pressure manufacturers from moving jobs further.

I understand, at least most superficially, the deliberation in the Chinese currency control. But as individuals we hardly have any short term benefits from it. Actually, as a result, we have to buy any imported (or assembled) merchandise for eight times the price in number while earning only a tenth of an American. Again, it’s all political and propaganda on both sides, it’s supposed to make people believe in just one side of the story. But whoever would be even interested in this kind of argument on this forum deserves to know the other side of the story, and should take more discretion before making a conclusion.

Well, sonny s, I guess it is pointless to have a discussion with anyone who doesn’t care about others at all. There has to be someone who pushes the government into taking action, people like you are doing that, and the rest make the negotiation and compromise. In that case, I could understand.

And oh, yes, if you looked less un-Asian and less foreign and spoke Chinese without accent, those Rolex could cost even less.

Chevrox, you have also shown no concern for the American worker or regret for blatant thievery going on in CHina which affects American job losses. You ahve ignored the issue. Not once have you mentioned this is wrong. You say that CHina has helped the Asian economy by keeping it afloat and currency control and capital crossing borders. Very technical and as someone who is not an economics major I won’t comment. I also mistrust economists in general as most of the things they say are bullshit and

China is stable because it is a police state. Terror and fear control the population. Rampant pollution and human rights abuses and low wages are what makes CHina competitive.

I take back what I said about the CHinese economy. CHina’s workers are abused by the rest of the world as cheap labor, and I feel for the workers. I think it is sad and ironic that a country founded on communist principles is now being abused by the opposite ideology of capitalism.

But, the US worker is also being abused by a very small group of people who indiscriminately and w/out gov’t control move massive amounts of capital and jobs and thus economic well being out of the country. This country has always seen the common working man abused by the richest men, only now there is a downturn in the economy and unemployment is skyrocketing and the fantastic welath the US possesses is not enought to counter that.

Here are some more thoughts:
" Bonuses totaling more than $10 million were paid out to five Kraft Foods Inc. executives at the end of 2003, even as the giant food maker made plans to lay off 6000 thousand workers."

Jay Leno said “of course they alid off 6000 workers. Where else are they gonna get the money from?”

One of the problems is the fetishization of “shareholder value” as the be-all-and-end-all of corporate existence.

I wish the US business mentality was more similar to the values of corporations in Japan which are geared toward lifelong jobs, or in Germany towards something like producing valued goods etc.

Point is, the above is examples of how corporations can contribute much more positively - JUST LIKE MOTION SYSTEMS CORP DOES IN REFUSING TO USE CHEAP LABOR FROM ABROAD!

Since I’m procrastinating big-time today, I will continue:

The US people are not without blame either for jobs moving to countries, esp. CHina, where the workers are paid so little and products are so cheap in quality.

This is because Americans want EVERYTHING. We want to buy everything,no matter what our income is. We are too focused on owning things and consuming than on being financially responsible and really examining whether owning many things is important and necessary.
Do we need every appliance there is? Do we need 2 closets worth of clothes, 1/2 of which we don’t wear or need?
Do our children need every toy that they want?

THe reasons are many, but ultimately we are responsible for what we buy and what quantities we buy.

This is part of the trade deficit and job loss crisis as well.

chevrox

I fully agree that it is due to the policies of government. One policy in particular i.e. the deliberate relegation goes Gold to the status of a barbarous relic. America can pay its current account deficit in US Dollars. It can do this indefinitely as US Dollars can be created indefinitely. But if America had to pay its current account deficit in gold it could not do this for long since the gold would run out. Thus the current account deficit would decrease, as it could not be paid for. And thus in time capital would stop flowing out of America.

Just curious as a Chinaman do you send money back to China (to either family or government)?