T Nation

Chemistry question for Bill Roberts.

Bill I don’t want to sound too dumb here. But hell I’m not the most scientifically inclined mind on the planet. I was just wondering if you could give me the dummies version of how exactly Mag 10 works. I have read on posts that it doesn’t increase Testosterone but it does increase androgens. What are theses androgens and how do they fit into the scheme of things as far as muscle growth goes. I don’t need a major explanation just some basic info on how this process works. I have gotten very good results from it. I hope I don’t sound too dumb just curious. Thanks

Anyone who can help me out with this one just some basic information would be appreciated

“Androgen” is a term meaning a class of steroid hormone pharmacologically related to testosterone which
has (generally) anabolic properties like testosterone as well as virilizing properties, i.e. causing and supporting male secondary sex characteristics.

Hormones work by binding to receptors in the
body and activating them. One of the major activities of androgens (but not the only one) is via a specific receptor called the AR or androgen receptor. If a molecule binds to the AR and activates it, it’s like turning on a light switch… the switch doesn’t care “who” turned it on, just that it’s turned on. And it’s not as if one person (or molecule) can turn it on “harder” than another… it’s either on or off.

In the case of the AR, when activated, it in turn activates genes which cause more proteins to be produced.

Androst-1-ene, which the body produces from A1-E in MAG-10, is very effective in working at the androgen receptor. It’s not testosterone but works like testosterone at this receptor.

It turns out that there are anabolic activities
of androgens that are produced by means other than the AR, not well understood but definitely there. Androst-1-ene does not seem so effective at these, but 4-AD is.

The combination “covers the bases” anabolically, which neither alone really does.

Thanks for the reply Bill. That helped clear things up in my mind a little bit. Like I said the stuff works amazingly well. And thanks to all you geniuses at Biotest for getting it out there.

If I am understanding what you said once the AR is activated then the anabolic and virilizing effects start to take place. What is the basic difference between what anabolic steroids and Mag 10 do, do steroids activate the AR for longer periods of time causing greater gains or are steroids hitting additional receptors. Again I hope I don’t sound too ignorant just curious why Mag 10 works and it has worked for me. I am only 9 days in and have gained over 12 pounds of lean mass. It has exceeded my expectations.

The only differences in the compounds
in MAG-10 and pharmaceutical anabolic steroids

  1. Legality. There are specific compounds
    which are illegal, and MAG-10 does not
    contain any of these. MAG-10 contains
    only legal esters of legal natural compounds.

  2. Many pharmaceutical anabolic steroids
    have adverse metabolic side effects of
    conversion to estrogen or DHT. Compounds
    in MAG-10 cannot convert directly to
    either of these, and indirect conversion
    is small or zero. So the compounds in MAG-10
    have safety advantages relative to most
    pharmaceutical anabolic steroids, and
    are better compared to compounds such
    as Primobolan (noted for safety) which
    like 4-AD and Androst-1-ene, do not have
    the above metabolic problems.

Just wanted to jump in here with a few questions for Bill. First I want to say thanks though. I really appreciate, as I’m sure everyone does, the time that you (Mr. Roberts) put in on this board. Your expertise is needed and appreciated.
On to the questions…

  1. I understand that there are very subtle differences between prohormones like MAG-10 and illegal steroids. But why are steroids more potent? In other words, why do illegal steroids give you better results than even the best prohormones? I assume intramuscular administration has something to do with this. I also realize the answer may not be fully known since the actions of steroids are not completely understood.
  2. Is it true that steroids that bind to the AR generally impart greater strength gains?
  3. I have heard that the original 1-AD (Ergopharm) gave great strength gains, but no mass gains. I have also heard on this board that MAG-10 gives some serious mass gains, but minimal strength gains. Why do you suppose this is? It doesn’t make sense to me since MAG-10 includes a form of 1-AD.


Tony, the difference between say dione prohormones and pharmaceutical anabolic steroids is that the dione prohormones require an inefficient and quite limited enzymatic conversion to become active.

With the diols it’s a little more complex.

4-AD is itself 95% as potent as testosterone.
If any company had happened to decide to sell it as an injectable anabolic steroid, we’d all consider it a potent and effective anabolic steroid. It so happens that no one did (this is true of hundreds of other potentially useful compounds too.)

Orally, bioavailability is terrible, and this
is why it has very low potency and can’t be compared to oral anabolic steroids.

Via effective transdermal delivery, using a gram per day of it is comparable to using say
50 mg/day of a good oral steroid. If you’re worried about percent, that’s not very good, but if you’re concerned only with results and value for the dollar, it’s excellent.

4-AD-EC orally in MAG-10 is considerably more

As for A1-E, again, if it had ever been sold
by a pharmaceutical company as an anabolic steroid, that’s exactly what you’d consider it. It’s actually more potent than testosterone on injection, and oral potency is still good with MAG-10 (far more than oral potency of testosterone, and comparable but not superior to the 17-alkylateds.)

You’re right that it seems that the Class I steroids (those binding well to the androgen receptor) are better for strength gains.

I don’t really agree, having read every post
on it as well as e-mails, that the e-mails are saying strength gains are not good on MAG-10. They’re everything you could ever expect from TWO WEEKS, and are usually quite good. The comparison you may be making is to strength gains from longer cycles, which obviously can be greater.

The 1-diol is not a potent compound even on
injection, being only 1/3 as potent as testosterone if I recall correctly. Since some
of it does convert to androst-1-ene, and androst-1-ene is 2-3 times more potent than testosterone, it has to be concluded that the 1-diol, unlike 4-AD, has little or no intrinsic activity. The effect of a 1-diol product is limited to what amount makes the conversion to androst-1-ene. Which MAG-10 provides directly.

Or more precisely, provides in a pro-steroid form that converts with essentially 100% efficiency. Just as with say testosterone enanthate, or trenbolone acetate, the carbonate
esters are cleaved essentially completely.

Thanks for clearing those issues up Bill. I do have a couple more questions though.

  1. Since 17-alkylated anabolics are known for being toxic to the liver in large doses, is there a possibility that carbonate esters could have the same effect (since they are cleaved off)?
  2. I know you said that 1-diol is not anabolic by it self, but rather it must convert to androst-1-ene first. Is A1E anabolic by itself? My impression was that A1E was just a carbonate ester of 1-diol. If this is correct, then why is A1E any better than 1-diol?

No, neither A1-E nor 4-AD is 17-alkylated,
and cannot cause liver toxicity.

The ester is in a different position (17beta
not 17alpha) and it’s not an alkylation
either. There’s no problem.

No, A1-E isn’t the ester of the 1-diol
sold by others. Rather, it’s the
ester of the active androst-1-ene itself.
(Analogous to, for example, how testosterone
enanthate is the ester of testosterone: except that that type of ester does not give oral bioavailability.)

If we used the fraudulent terminology used
by others, we’d call the stuff “1-testosterone ethylcarbonate ester.” (However, that name just isn’t chemically correct though apparently it’s fantastic for sales.)