T Nation

Charlie Brown Kwanza

[quote]Professor X wrote:
doogie wrote:
To be fair, do Italian Americans celebrate any festivals they made up in the new country?

To be fair, did Italian Americans lose all of their heritage having to effectively begin again with no history of their past culture due to slavery?[/quote]

That’s bullshit. If Kwanzaa was made up in the 1700s or 1800s, you would have a point. It was made up in 1966. Are you saying that in 1966 African-American academics had no way of knowing what authentic African culture was, so they just made up their own pretend African culture?

[quote]doogie wrote:
Professor X wrote:
doogie wrote:
To be fair, do Italian Americans celebrate any festivals they made up in the new country?

To be fair, did Italian Americans lose all of their heritage having to effectively begin again with no history of their past culture due to slavery?

That’s bullshit. If Kwanzaa was made up in the 1700s or 1800s, you would have a point. It was made up in 1966. Are you saying that in 1966 African-American academics had no way of knowing what authentic African culture was, so they just made up their own pretend African culture?[/quote]

What’s bullshit is your uneducated understanding of history. The 1700’s? While blacks were still slaves? The 1800’s? The majority of which when blacks were still slaves? 100 years after slaves were freed, you are upset because a holiday was created as a way of connecting with African culture? I understand exactly what Dr. Maulana Karenga was attempting to accomplish. His entire view is based upon providing a background and a culture for an entire segment of the population that was transported to this country and kept seperate from it until just this last century, largely AFTER the Civil Rights movement. I personally don’t celebrate it, but I understand the goal of it and even understand that some may need that connection.

Your stance is racist because it refuses to understand what influenced it. You want to pretend that Italian Americans can be directly compared to African Americans. It is an uneducated stance. No matter how hard you try you can’t ignore the fact that the Civil Rights movement happened for a rather large national reason. I am laughing at the fact that you believe blacks could have created anything as far as culture in the 1700’s…while an entire race was being bought and sold like cattle. You can’t possibly be this in the dark about history so it can only be chalked up to racism. The information is out there. Why do you choose to ignore it?

As far as that website. That wasn’t even offensive to me. I thought it was pretty overdone and stupid, but it wasn’t offensive at all. Hell, your comment wasn’t even offensive. It just makes you look that much less intelligent.

[quote]Mr. Bear wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
mclemorejohn wrote:
DEFINITION OF KWANZAA Kwanzaa is a unique African American celebration with focus on the traditional African values of family, community responsibility, commerce, and self-improvement. Kwanzaa is neither political nor religious and despite some misconceptions, is not a substitute for Christmas. It is simply a time of reaffirming African-American people, their ancestors and culture. Kwanzaa, which means “first fruits of the harvest” in the African language Kiswahili, has gained tremendous acceptance.

Since its founding in 1966 by Dr. Maulana Karenga, Kwanzaa has come to be observed by more than18 million people worldwide, as reported by the New York Times.

When establishing Kwanzaa in 1966, Dr. Karenga included an additional “a” to the end of the spelling to reflect the difference between the African American celebration (kwanzaa) and the Motherland spelling (kwanza).

This definition doesn’t mention that it is not a recognized holiday in Africa. As such, it cannot be an African-American holiday. It can only be an a holiday that blacks in the US celebrate.

It is African-Americans who celebrate their African heritage. So yes it can.

Do you get this upset about Italian American festivals? I’m just not seeing what your problem is, but for your own sake, you should probably stop posting because you sound at best ignorant. [/quote]

You don’t seem to be the brightest, so let me break it down for you. What Italian-American festivals are celebrated in the US that are not celebrated or recognized in Italy? If there are some, please list. And if there indeed are, I stand corrected. If not, you are full of shyte!

[quote]Professor X wrote:
doogie wrote:
To be fair, do Italian Americans celebrate any festivals they made up in the new country?

To be fair, did Italian Americans lose all of their heritage having to effectively begin again with no history of their past culture due to slavery?[/quote]

I can understand this and it is a reasonable point. However, the question must be asked; why do blacks in this country, of African decent, need to know their biological heritage more than other races? If you are born in the US why can the US not be your “roots” or culture of origin? Why do most other races of people who were born in the US never visit or even care about the culture their biology supposedly originates from?

The core of my question has to do with the US culture more than anything. Why is it not good enough to be an American? Why do you have to be a _______- American?

When you have time, it might be fun to do some research on Kwanzaa founder Dr. Maulana Karenga, who clearly epitomized these values.

Read it again. I said if African-Americans had just made up a holiday in the 1700s or 1800s (yes when they were still slaves or shortly thereafter) it would have made sense. It would have made sense at that time because they didn’t have the opportunity to learn what authentic African culture and celebrations were.

Kwanzaa was made up in 1966 by a Dr. of Political Science and African Studies. He had access to authentic African traditions (he was a Dr. of African studies) that he could have advocated, but he made-up a completely new holiday.

If you really think I’m racist because I think it is silly to make-up holidays, then you don’t know what the word means.

Hell, if you are going to discuss racism and Kwanzaa, why not start with Ron N. Everett. Surely you don’t deny he’s a racist.

[quote]doogie wrote:
Read it again. I said if African-Americans had just made up a holiday in the 1700s or 1800s (yes when they were still slaves or shortly thereafter) it would have made sense. It would have made sense at that time because they didn’t have the opportunity to learn what authentic African culture and celebrations were.[/quote]

Are you seriously just clueless of what slavery was? How could they have possibly created any sort of communal holiday any time around the time of slavery? They weren’t even allowed to learn to read, yet you are pissed because it took some time after slavery for a holiday like this to surface?

[quote]
Kwanzaa was made up in 1966 by a Dr. of Political Science and African Studies. He had access to authentic African traditions (he was a Dr. of African studies) that he could have advocated, but he made-up a completely new holiday. [/quote]
Good for him. Have you actually done research on the man? This wasn’t some crack pot who just decided to toss a holiday together. Considering what is meant by the tenants of Kwanzaaa, why would you or anyone else be against it?

[quote]
If you really think I’m racist because I think it is silly to make-up holidays, then you don’t know what the word means. [/quote]

You have proven what the word means. Don’t get pissed because you fit the profile in this discussion.

[quote]
Hell, if you are going to discuss racism and Kwanzaa, why not start with Ron N. Everett. Surely you don’t deny he’s a racist.[/quote]

What does he have to do with this discussion?

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Are you seriously just clueless of what slavery was? How could they have possibly created any sort of communal holiday any time around the time of slavery? They weren’t even allowed to learn to read, yet you are pissed because it took some time after slavery for a holiday like this to surface? [/quote]

You’re dense. Why didn’t Ron N. Everett (as a Dr. of African studies) base the holiday on an actual African festival?

Kwanzaa is stupid. I’m sure there are some dumbass white racist groups who’ve made up their own holidays. Those are stupid, too.

Just because I find some aspect of fringe, radical, communist African-American culture to be stupid does not make me a racist. Do I have to think everything African-American is great in order not to be a racist? That’s retarded. I don’t like EVERYTHING about any culture. I like jazz but hate rap. Does that make me half a racist?

[quote]Hell, if you are going to discuss racism and Kwanzaa, why not start with Ron N. Everett. Surely you don’t deny he’s a racist.

What does he have to do with this discussion?[/quote]

He made up Kwanzaa. He changed his name to Maulana Ron Karenga.

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/tony/snow123199.asp

http://www.dartreview.com/issues/1.15.01/kwanzaa.html

Some highlights:

On September 17, 1971, Karenga was sentenced to one to ten years in prison on counts of felonious assault and false imprisonment. The charges stemmed from a May 9, 1970 incident in which Karenga and two others tortured two women who Karenga believed had tried to kill him by placing “crystals” in his food and water.

A year later the Los Angeles Times described the events: “Deborah Jones, who once was given the title of an African queen, said she and Gail Davis were whipped with an electrical cord and beaten with a karate baton after being ordered to remove their clothes. She testified that a hot soldering iron was placed in Miss Davis’ mouth and placed against Miss Davis’ face and that one of her own big toes was tightened in a vice. Karenga, head of US, also put detergent and running hoses in their mouths, she said.”

The shooting at UCLA caused Karenga to become deeply paranoid and spurred his bizarre behavior. At his trial, the question of Karenga’s sanity arose. The psychiatrist’s report stated, “This man now represents a picture which can be considered both paranoid and schizophrenic with hallucinations and elusions, inappropriate affect, disorganization, and impaired contact with the environment.” The psychiatrist observed that Karenga talked to his blanket and imaginary persons and believed that he had been attacked by dive-bombers…

…Still, some charge that the holiday and its official black, green, and red flag promotes racial separatism and violence. Says the official Kwanzaa Information Center: “red, or the blood, stands as the top of all things. We lost our land through blood; and we cannot gain it except through blood. We must redeem our lives through the blood. Without the shedding of blood there can be no redemption of this race.” The Kwanzaa Information Center also notes that the flag “has become the symbol of devotion for African people in America to establish an independent African nation on the North American Continent.”

James Coleman, a former Black Panther, argues, “By only stressing the unity of black people, Kwanzaa separates black people from the rest of Americans. Americans must unify on whatever principles ensure we live in a safe, prosperous, God-loving country, with the race and ethnicity of any American seeking to abide by those principles being of no consequence.”

[quote]doogie wrote:

A bunch of stuff
[/quote]

So any focus on black americans is now seen as racism? Was the Civil Rights movement racist? I mean, they weren’t exactly fighting for the civil rights of white american males.

[quote]doogie wrote:
Professor X wrote:

Are you seriously just clueless of what slavery was? How could they have possibly created any sort of communal holiday any time around the time of slavery? They weren’t even allowed to learn to read, yet you are pissed because it took some time after slavery for a holiday like this to surface?

You’re dense. Why didn’t Ron N. Everett (as a Dr. of African studies) base the holiday on an actual African festival?

[/quote]

That is a great question. If the goal was to re-link blacks from Africa back to their roots and heritage, why not support a holiday that is actually African? Making up a new holiday that is neither African nor American dissociates Blacks (of African decent) from both America and Africa.

Doogie, here is my opinion on your stance.

You need to let it go.

Your home state, of which I’m sure you have a flag either waving in your yard, or on a belt-buckle, or on your wall, has 5 state Holidays which only requires a skeleton crew of it’s employees to be present for work.

Which ones?

  1. Confederate Hero’s Day (three days after MLK day, go figure)

  2. Texas Independence Day (March 2nd)

  3. San Jacinto Day (21 April)

  4. Emancipation Day (19 June)

  5. LBJ’s B-day (27 August)

Kwanzaa isn’t even recognized as a state Holiday anywhere, all the Holiday represents is the opprotunity for African Americans to reflect and celebrate their heritage. Something Texas gets to do as entire state at least 5 times a year! And get paid for it!

Don’t you think that’s a little extreme? Or do the people of Texas have more of a right to celebrate their heritage than African Americans?

Why is this Holiday’s existence a big deal to you? Because a PHD drummed it out of the air back in the 60’s and didn’t have an emancipation day, or a battle, or a birthday to back it up?

That’s rediculous Doogie, it really is.

GAINER

http://therightcoast.blogspot.com/2004_12_01_therightcoast_archive.html#110436900614567035

On the First Day of Kwanzaa, My True Love Tortured Me … (Reprise)
By Gail Heriot

I have been prevailed upon by my colleagues to repeat my post from
last year. Rumor has it that we have picked up some readers since then

If you visit a card shop at your local shopping mall these days,
chances are you will see Kwanzaa cards. It’s big business. (Well,
maybe it’s just medium-sized business, but it is evidently lucrative
enough for card companies to bother with.) And if you go to swanky
private schools like the one attended by the children of my fellow
Right Coaster Chris Wonnell, you may well receive instruction on this
traditional African-American holiday. Taking Kwanzaa seriously is all
part of the spirit of multiculturalism.

Except, of course, Kwanzaa isn’t traditional at all. It was invented
in the late 1960s by convicted felon Ron Everett, leader of a
so-called black nationalist group called United Slaves. I use the word
“so-called” because United Slaves’ veneer of black nationalism was
very thin; most of its members had been members of a South Central Los
Angeles street gang called the Gladiators, just as the Southern
California chapter of the Black Panthers drew its members from the
Slauson gang.

In the early 1960s, these gangs were mostly concerned with petty and
not-so-petty crime in the Los Angeles area, including the ever-popular
practice of hitting up local merchants for protection money. By the
late 1960s, however, they discovered that if they cloaked their
activities in rhetoric of black nationalism, they could hit up not
just the local pizza parlor, but great institutions of higher learning
as well, most notably UCLA. Everett re-named himself Maulana Ron
Karenga (“Maulana” we are told is Swahili for “master teacher”),
donned an African dashiki, and invented Kwanzaa. And the radical chic
folks at UCLA went into paroxysms of appreciation.

In theory, Kwanzaa is a Pan-African harvest holiday, except that it is
not set at harvest time. And in theory, it celebrates the ties of
African Americans to African culture, except that it purports to
celebrate those ties using the East African language of Swahili when
nearly all African Americans are descended from West African peoples.

But those are just details. Many of the best-loved holidays in the
Christian calendar have traditions connected to them that don’t quite
fit if you examine them too closely. But those rough edges have now
been smoothed over by the long passage of time. No one really cares if
the Christmas tree was once used to celebrate pagan holidays; many
generations of credible Christians have earned the right to claim it
as their own.

Kwanzaa is different. It has connections to still-living violent
criminals. To suggest that it is an “African American holiday” is an
insult to the Black community, very few of whom celebrate Kwanzaa and
even fewer of whom would celebrate it if they knew the full story of
its recent history.

UCLA soon found that a bunch of street thugs calling themselves United
Slaves can dress themselves up in colorful clothing, learn a few words
of Swahili but they will still be … well … street thugs. The
beginning of the end for United Slaves as an organization came with a
gun battle fought on the UCLA campus against the Black Panthers over
which group would control the new Afro-American Studies Center (and
its generous budget). In the end, two Black Panther
leaders–Alprentice “Bunchy” Carter and John Jerome Huggins–were
dead. Two members of United Slaves were convicted of their murder.
(Under UCLA’s High-Potential Program, which admitted
politically-active minority students during the late 1960s, often
regardless of their academic credentials or even whether they had
graduated from high school, many members of the Black Panthers and
United Slaves were registered as students at UCLA.)

No, Maulana Ron Karenga was not among them. But not long after the
incident, Karenga proved himself to be every bit as brutal as his
followers when he was charged and convicted of two counts of felonious
assault and one count of false imprisonment.

The details of the crime as reported in the Los Angeles Times (and
quoted last year by Paul Mulshine in an article for FrontPage
magazine) are horrific. The paranoid Karenga began to suspect that the
members of his organization were trying to poison him by placing
“crystals” in his food and around the house. According to the Los
Angeles Times:

“Deborah Jones, who once was given the Swahili title of an African
queen, said she and Gail Davis were whipped with an electrical cord
and beaten with a karate baton after being ordered to remove their
clothes. She testified that a hot soldering iron was placed in Miss
Davis’ mouth and placed against Miss Davis’ face and that one of her
own big toes was tightened in a vise. Karenga, head of US, also put
detergent and running hoses in their mouths, she said.”

The Los Angeles Times went on the state that "Karenga allegedly told
the women that ‘Vietnamese torture is nothing compared to what I
know.’ "

Karenga spent time in prison for the act. But if you are worried about
what has become of him, you needn’t be. He served only a few years.
When he got out, he somehow convinced Cal State Long Beach to make him
head of the African Studies Department. Happy Kwanzaa.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

doogie wrote:

A bunch of stuff

So any focus on black americans is now seen as racism? Was the Civil Rights movement racist? I mean, they weren’t exactly fighting for the civil rights of white american males.[/quote]

Do you suffer reading comprehension difficulties, or are you just trying to change the subject? That’s not what I said at all.

You played the “racist” card. You called me a racist because I think Kwanzaa is a stupid holiday made up by a racist communist. It is. Hell, even the Black Panther’s thought this idiot was too racist.

[quote]elevationgain wrote:
Doogie, here is my opinion on your stance.

You need to let it go.

Your home state, of which I’m sure you have a flag either waving in your yard, or on a belt-buckle, or on your wall, has 5 state Holidays which only requires a skeleton crew of it’s employees to be present for work.

Which ones?

  1. Confederate Hero’s Day (three days after MLK day, go figure)

  2. Texas Independence Day (March 2nd)

  3. San Jacinto Day (21 April)

  4. Emancipation Day (19 June)

  5. LBJ’s B-day (27 August)

Kwanzaa isn’t even recognized as a state Holiday anywhere, all the Holiday represents is the opprotunity for African Americans to reflect and celebrate their heritage. Something Texas gets to do as entire state at least 5 times a year! And get paid for it!

Don’t you think that’s a little extreme? Or do the people of Texas have more of a right to celebrate their heritage than African Americans?

Why is this Holiday’s existence a big deal to you? Because a PHD drummed it out of the air back in the 60’s and didn’t have an emancipation day, or a battle, or a birthday to back it up?

That’s rediculous Doogie, it really is.

GAINER[/quote]

A) Texas holidays have nothing to do with this conversation. None of those days you listed were just made up out fo thin air. Nice try though.

B) I don’t actually have any Texas flags other than in my classroom.

C)No one actually gets off work on any of those holidays. There are some battle re-enactments on San Jacinto Day and Texas Independence Day, but the only day where there are actual celebrations is Juneteenth. I’ll dig up some pictures from last year.

D)Emancipation Day in Texas is in honor of the emancipation of the slaves in Texas in 1865. It’s also called Juneteenth. It’s when the slaves in Galveston finally learned they had been freed. You don’t really have a problem with us celebrating that do you?

E) It’s not important to me at all. I think it’s a dumb holiday made up by a communist, racist, criminal. That’s all.

I meant to add

F) Confederate Heroes Day was first approved and effective January 30, 1931 as Robert E. Lee’s Birthday. Well before MLK’s birthday meant anything.

“Lets lock legs and swap gravy” LMAO

My point about Italian Americans was that you guys would definitely not be this pissed if they had some sort of celebration. Around my area, there are all kinds of German and Italian Days, which amount to little more than fairs and concerts. But the point remains that if there was something called African American days, racists like you guys would be pissed off about it.

The holiday was not made up “out of thin air” as someone has asserted, and nor does it’s legitimacy depend on the life of the man who founded it. As I said before, every holiday is “made up” in the sense that you all are using the phrase. Christmas is made up, it’s a celebration of an event; Christ never mandated its existence. All holidays are an act of rememberance for past culture/happenings, and that is exactly what Kwanzaa is. Give it up, dudes.

[quote]doogie wrote:
Professor X wrote:

doogie wrote:

A bunch of stuff

So any focus on black americans is now seen as racism? Was the Civil Rights movement racist? I mean, they weren’t exactly fighting for the civil rights of white american males.

Do you suffer reading comprehension difficulties, or are you just trying to change the subject? That’s not what I said at all.

You played the “racist” card. You called me a racist because I think Kwanzaa is a stupid holiday made up by a racist communist. It is. Hell, even the Black Panther’s thought this idiot was too racist.
[/quote]

Come on bro, let’s be understanding about this. Even if the guy who created Kwanza is a racists, that doesn’t make Kwanza a racists holiday. I think he was just trying to bring some dignity back to black people that he felt was missing, and used a made-up holiday to try and do that. So blacks who celebrate Kwanza are not racists by honoring the holiday.

The issue is that the holiday doesn’t support blacks being American or African. So while the guys heart may have been in the right place, his brain was out to lunch as the holiday relates to neither an African nor American experience. In fact, it doesn’t even support the African-American experience either as that would be related to what the blacks went through in this country, not some made-up romanticized ideal about Africa that doesn’t exist.

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
doogie wrote:
Professor X wrote:

doogie wrote:

A bunch of stuff

So any focus on black americans is now seen as racism? Was the Civil Rights movement racist? I mean, they weren’t exactly fighting for the civil rights of white american males.

Do you suffer reading comprehension difficulties, or are you just trying to change the subject? That’s not what I said at all.

You played the “racist” card. You called me a racist because I think Kwanzaa is a stupid holiday made up by a racist communist. It is. Hell, even the Black Panther’s thought this idiot was too racist.

Come on bro, let’s be understanding about this. Even if the guy who created Kwanza is a racists, that doesn’t make Kwanza a racists holiday. I think he was just trying to bring some dignity back to black people that he felt was missing, and used a made-up holiday to try and do that. So blacks who celebrate Kwanza are not racists by honoring the holiday.

The issue is that the holiday doesn’t support blacks being American or African. So while the guys heart may have been in the right place, his brain was out to lunch as the holiday relates to neither an African nor American experience. In fact, it doesn’t even support the African-American experience either as that would be related to what the blacks went through in this country, not some made-up romanticized ideal about Africa that doesn’t exist.
[/quote]

It tries to tie black American culture back with traditional African values; I’m really not seeing your point.

[quote]Mr. Bear wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
doogie wrote:
Professor X wrote:

doogie wrote:

A bunch of stuff

So any focus on black americans is now seen as racism? Was the Civil Rights movement racist? I mean, they weren’t exactly fighting for the civil rights of white american males.

Do you suffer reading comprehension difficulties, or are you just trying to change the subject? That’s not what I said at all.

You played the “racist” card. You called me a racist because I think Kwanzaa is a stupid holiday made up by a racist communist. It is. Hell, even the Black Panther’s thought this idiot was too racist.

Come on bro, let’s be understanding about this. Even if the guy who created Kwanza is a racists, that doesn’t make Kwanza a racists holiday. I think he was just trying to bring some dignity back to black people that he felt was missing, and used a made-up holiday to try and do that. So blacks who celebrate Kwanza are not racists by honoring the holiday.

The issue is that the holiday doesn’t support blacks being American or African. So while the guys heart may have been in the right place, his brain was out to lunch as the holiday relates to neither an African nor American experience. In fact, it doesn’t even support the African-American experience either as that would be related to what the blacks went through in this country, not some made-up romanticized ideal about Africa that doesn’t exist.

It tries to tie black American culture back with traditional African values; I’m really not seeing your point.
[/quote]

So it is a holiday for values? It would have actually accomplished this if it was related to some actual African holiday or widely recognized religious or cultural practice actually done in Africa.

So the point is bro, that it doesn’t relate to Africa because it is not a practice/observance that is actually done in Africa. This is why Kwanza is not recognized in Africa either.